Kangerooing Problems

[gti-si 0]

Hi

 

I have recently bought GLPoomobile's Cherry Red 1.6. Im completly in love with it and it's absolutly perfect for what I want. When I bought the car Steve explained that the car kangeroo's more severly than that of a normal 205. It's mainly at low revs (1500 - 2200) on very part throttle but seems to be kangerooing slightly at around 3k in high gears aswell, again on part throttle.

 

It was mentioned that this could be down to:

 

A ) Timing being out by a tooth

B ) Having a 1.9 cam

C ) Valve clearences slightly out

 

I've since changed the cambelt but didn't do the valve clearences as I didn't want it of the road for days, I will be getting around to this very soon. Just wanted some other opinions on what else it could be? It's the only thing that's irritating me slightly about the car and I really want to iron the problem out.

 

It did start after the headwork was done (1.9 cam and cylinder head replaced the 1.6 one) so it would seem obvious to be the clearences or cam but it seems to be worse on some occasions than others. So, any ideas on what I can check apart from the above and any other likely candidates?

 

Another small thing to mention is I can smell petrol whilst driving and on idle on occasion, is this indicating it's running rich or is it normal? It idles superbly considering, around 1400rpm when cold and between 900 - 1000 when warm so hardly any hunting.

 

And ( ) it warms up very fast on idle after a drive to around mid way on the temp gauge (4th or 5th notch) and keeps on the third (I think) notch when warmed up and driving. I know that's a lame question but it's one that has to be asked so I know when things arn't right. I only had my last 205 for a few months 2 years ago, don't even remember whether the dials worked! Im obsessivly staring at the oil pressure and temp this time, dont want to do her any damage

 

Sorry for sounding a tool with these ever so retarded questions,

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Si

Edited June 7, 2007 by gti-si

[elrikos 0]

don't worry, no stupid questions and all that! Not sure of how the car responds to a 1.9 camshaft in it but i would try to do all the normal things mentioned for kangarooing problems. Mine turned out to be a rich mixture on idle and someone having played silly buggers with the throttle switch. Lots of things are disturbed when doing a head swap and so i wouldn't automatically assume that its due to the head rather tahn the act of changing the head and messing around with the asociated ancillaries.

Rich

[GLPoomobile 958]

Si

 

 

Another possibility that I never investigated is an air leak on the induction side. Perhaps the manifold isn't sealing properly after I refitted it. Disappointing that the problem is still present after you've swapped the belt etc

 

I had noticed it smelled a bit strongly of petrol actually but didn't think much of it. It doesn't drink excessively and no problems on the emissions at MOT time so just dismissed it as 'one of those things'.

 

I know my opinion is biased, but don't worry about the temp. It doesn't rise any quicker than my previous 205s and has never ever hinted at overheating when sat in traffic (something I've had plenty of practice with, being in London). When I went to view my Mi I noticed the temp rose very quickly indeed, even just in the few minutes it was idling before I took it for a test drive. Had it not been rebuilt by DES not long ago I'd be a bit worried about it, and I am a bit paranoid about getting stuck in traffic on the way home when I bring it back. I plan to check it over fully though. But basically I'm just saying that compared to this Mi, the 1.6 behaves much more 'normally'.

[gti-si 0]

Yeah, that's what I thought, it wasn't even talking about overheating, just rose past it's usual temperature very quickly when sitting, just wanted to know if thats normal then I know when something isn't.

 

It may well be running slightly rich, might explain the kangerooing. I'll check out the induction side then, like you say, it's in desperate need of a new filter so i'll do that at the same time and check over other ancillaries. I really need to sort the clearnences out I think...

 

Was just podering on whether this would be the cause and found it sound unlikely. I think that's because I half hoped the timing belt would sort it, and it didn't so it's another sinking feeling it won't be the clearences.

 

Thanks for the comments

 

P.S, got stopped by a guy on my street today...Just to tell me what a stunning car I'd got and how he wanted one more than anything when he was 18 (35 now) because it was the bog's dollocks! Just to rub it in, yer know

[kyepan 291]

i have a delimited ecu that may solve the problem if its just the basic part throttle issue that all 8v cars have

[matty_gti 20]

Just to add i had a 1.9 cam in my 1.6 and it ran very well with none of your problems so i dought it is that....may be clearences.

 

Matt

[t16ryan 1]

faulty fuel temp sensor?

[gti-si 0]

kyepan, it is more than the usual 8v kangerooing business. What are the benefits of a delimited ECUm though? May be interested if it's worth it. Bearing in mind I don't want to ruin my MPG

 

It was quite noticable today, strangely varies. If I take her out after its had a run round and been warm, say 30 mins later, the kangerooing is abit worse. Whats the fuel temp sensor? Didn't even know there was one haha

 

Thanks Matt, I was fairly confident the cam would not be the issue. There seem to be mixed opinions on whether they hamper performance but I think the general consesous is that they don't.

[t16ryan 1]

Sorry meant ECU temp sensor

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Yeah, that's what I thought, it wasn't even talking about overheating, just rose past it's usual temperature very quickly when sitting, just wanted to know if thats normal then I know when something isn't.

 

It's normal, as long as the light doesn't come on you've got nothing to worry about.

[gti-si 0]

Haha, I did wonder. Im pretty sure that's all good, don't know why though, maybe I should check it out. It doesn't seem to be over fuelling though because bar one occasion it starts absolutly fine when warm.

 

Or can it have other effects? Like smelling of petrol and kangerooing mainly

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

id say have a good look for induction air leaks, my car did it badly arround 1500-2500 only when going slow in say first and seccond, but after replacing a dodgy servo hose, inlet gasket and took the sad off it seemed to be grately reduced to the point it dosent bother me anymore, could also try different petrol i hear imported aussie petrol is quite bad for it

Edited June 7, 2007 by M_R_205

[gti-si 0]

Yeah i've been running on run of the mil 95 ron. Was going to stick some higher grade fuel in but couldn't find anywhere doing high grade fuel, even the tesco near me is only doing 95!

 

Need to go fill up with optimax. Does ti make a difference to performance on the 1.6 like ti does with the 1.9? So much so the timing would be different?

[kyepan 291]

its got another resistor in it, to remove the rev limit. it did smooth it out when i used it, i think its a 1.6 ecu.. but was not any different otherwise.

 

Someone on here may be able to tell you why it smooths out the idle.

 

if you were a bit more local you could plug it in to try..

[StuF215 1 1 Cars]

Engine mounts help kangerooing aswell. The top mount, space the rubbers so they touch the alloy mount as stops the engine moving so much, it should reduce it at least if you havnt done this already.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Thought I better add some facts to this to help the diagnosis.

 

 

The car had none of these problems when I bought it. It started spot on, idled fairy evenly around 1000rpm, didn't kangaroo much at all (just the average) and basically ran fine. All of this was in spite of the fact that it was burning oil badly due to shot valve stem seals.

 

The problem only appeared after I swapped the cylinder head.

 

Basically I had a spare 1.9 head complete from my previous 205, which was fine. In order to minimise down time, I stripped the 1.9 head and fitted all new seals, cleaned the head up including all the gasket mating surfaces, and relapped the valves in to the seats. I obviously fitted a new headgasket and bolts when it all went back together but struggled to fit a new timing belt, and time was short to I stuck the old belt back on. Due to me struggling with the job, I assumed that I may have got the belt on 1 toth out and that was the cause of the problem, but obviously not.

 

So what could it be?

 

1 - Cam timing? No, Si has fitted a new belt and he's sure the timing is OK

2 - 1.9 cam in a 1.6 engine? No, cos others have done this and don't have this prolem

3 - ECU temp sensor? I don't think so. No problems starting the car, and it gets good MPG. Although it does smell a bit rich

4 - Mixture too rich? Possibly. But then it didn't cause problems before the head swap and nothing has been done to the AFM since then. Hasn't had issues passing emissions tests either.

5 - Ignition timing? - Have played around and it makes no difference where the dizzy is set to

6 - Petrol? Have run it on 95 and Super, and makes no difference. Used to use Optimax most of the time

7 - Induction side air leak? This is where my money is at now. The manifold was fitted with a new gasket, but it's possible it hasn't sealed 100%

8 - Valve clearances? Dunno if this would cause it. They are a tiny bit outside of the Haynes tolerance though.

 

Some other things that probably don't make a difference but are all factors:

 

1 - When I was putting everything back together the brown sensor loom plug dissintegrated so I had to splice all the wires together. Does the ECU temp sensor go through this loom? If so, maybe it could be a cause.

2 - Had OE induction before. Changed to a induction filter during this bit of work, and used the manky old filter from my 1.9. Prob not the cause but thought I'd mention it.

Edited June 8, 2007 by GLPoomobile

[gti-si 0]

Thanks very much for that Steve. That pretty much sums the problem up perfectly. I'd be quite interested to hear opinions on the ECU temp sender, whether it does go through that loon and fuel mixture from that - possible faulty AFM? Can't see the mixture just changing on it's own accord.

 

I'm gonna take the inlet manifold off and put a new gasket on I think, just need to buy a torque wrench first which means spending money I've not got just yet. How can I tell if it's not sealed? Just a case of reseal and see if it makes a difference?

 

I've just filled up with some Shell V-Power (guess it's the same as optimax?) and it seemed alot happier, having said this i'm sure the fuel I filled up with was sh*t quality if there is such a thing, was from a scabby garage.

 

One more thing I was pondering is, was the head skimmed (the 1.9) in it's life? And would this make any difference to timing and ignition timing? Just a throw in the dark

Edited June 8, 2007 by gti-si

[GLPoomobile 958]

Thanks very much for that Steve. That pretty much sums the problem up perfectly. I'd be quite interested to hear opinions on the ECU temp sender, whether it does go through that loon and fuel mixture from that - possible faulty AFM? Can't see the mixture just changing on it's own accord.

 

I'm gonna take the inlet manifold off and put a new gasket on I think, just need to buy a torque wrench first which means spending money I've not got just yet. How can I tell if it's not sealed? Just a case of reseal and see if it makes a difference?

 

I've just filled up with some Shell V-Power (guess it's the same as optimax?) and it seemed alot happier, having said this i'm sure the fuel I filled up with was sh*t quality if there is such a thing, was from a scabby garage.

 

One more thing I was pondering is, was the head skimmed (the 1.9) in it's life? And would this make any difference to timing and ignition timing? Just a throw in the dark

 

 

I never thought about the head being skimmed before. I suppose it's a possibility!

 

To check if there's an air leak on the manifold I think you need to spay something like carb cleaner around the joint and if the revs rise then it shows it's being sucked through and there must be a leak. If you do refit the manifold then maybe be worth using some sealant of some sort in addition to the gasket.

 

One other thing that I wondered about at the time - I noticed the gasket seemed to obscure the ports slightly (yes, it is a GTi gasket!) and I so I trimmed a little bit off of the gasket because I thought it may interfere with the firing path from the injectors. I doubt it is the case, but I did wonder if maybe the gasket was still not perfect and was indeed blocking the injectors slightly.

 

Oh, and Si, bear in mind that I advanced the ignition quite a bit as I always used Optimax. I don't think I ever suffered pinking on the odd occasion that I used 95 ron, but it's difficult to tell as the engine and exhaust are so noisy

[gti-si 0]

Ok so I need to keep it running on V-Power or Ultimate where possible? That's not a problem, worth the few pence extra.

 

I have concluded the car is running slightly rich as I start to get a smell of petrol when it's warmed up abit, but not much when it's cold. The exhaust is pretty sooty aswell but i've not checked out the plugs. So with that, could that mean a faulty ECU temp sensor? It's only failed to start when warm once, I would of thought if it was dodgy it'd be having more issues? Or can these things degrade?

 

Is it possible that it's running a little rich and that's causing problems so just needs adjusting by the fuel mixture on the AFM?

 

Would a head skim make such a difference to ignition timing and could that be causing the kangerooing? I too havn't heard it pinking

 

Sorry for all these questions but I really would like to hear some opinions before i start turning screws haha

 

I'll look at the inlet manifold then and spray some carb cleaner on. Are the cheap £15 torque wrecnhes good for the job?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Would a head skim make such a difference to ignition timing and could that be causing the kangerooing?

A head skim will make a difference to the ignition timing but not by very much, possibly enough to make it slighty out but not enough to cause pinking. Maybe thats why its also sooty & smells slightly rich. Does the vac advance capsule work?

 

I bought an engine from Dead205 last year for a friends car that also was a 1.6 with a 1.9 head & cam fitted had been skimmed but that runs fine. Except for the only thing that doesn't work which was fine before is the SAD, all thats different between the before & after is the CTS so I'm swapping that sometime.

Are the cheap £15 torque wrecnhes good for the job?

Probably not & thats why they are £15.

 

You can get a decent kamasa one that was a Auto trdader best buy for under £30 iirc (Kamasa SP3780).

 

A 1.6 GTi will run fine on normal ul so you shouldn't have to run it on SUL or Vpower ectc just so it doesn't kangaroo.

 

I'd check the emissions before you start messing with the idle mixture on the AFM & adjust them whilst its plugged in if possible. Are the insides of the AFM, TB & all breathers clean?

 

Graham.

[gti-si 0]

I've not checked all the breathers and it is a while since then were cleaned from what I can make out, so I'll have a gander today. Should I retard the ignition slightly if that is the case?

 

I'll give the vac advance capsule a search as I've no idea what it is, unless it's a posh name for the SAD that is

 

Thanks,

 

Si

[James_m 0]

As already said, id shim the buffers on drivers side mount, as well as checking condition before doing anything else.

[gti-si 0]

So make the gap smaller? How am I going to go about this?

[kyepan 291]

vac advance - look at the metal part of the distributor, it will have what looks like a bycycle bell on the back underside. it should have a thin vacume hose connected to it.

 

inside this .. thingy, is a little diaphram connected to a rod that advances / retards the ignition when the engine is idling to help it run smooth at low rpm.

 

the diaphram breaks, to test, mark the dizzy position, take it off by undoing the two bolts, pull the hose off the vac advance and suck on the nozzle connected to the dizzy, if its like sucking through a straw, the diaphram has broken, if there is resistance and you can't, its ok.

 

hope this helps, as it does make a significant difference to the idle characheristics.

Edited June 10, 2007 by kyepan

[gti-si 0]

I'll check that then, thanks kyepan. Checked the breathers today and there all clear and unclocked (didnt check any of the ones on the underside of the throttle body, presume there for the vad adv).

 

Gay day though, the gearbox is definatly dropping oil :/ and coolant is leaking from tthe hose connecting to the radiator. Steve replaced the jubilee clips with cheap ones which were advised I change, hopefully thats why and not that the pipes deteriorated.

 

Bahhh