Mi16 Not Starting

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

went to fire the mi16 for the first time today and it didnt, its a freshly recon`d engine so theres no problem withthat,

(its running on carbs with 8v dizzy etc)

the two main things i can think of is ignition timing and cam timing,

 

basics first, firing order is deffinatley 1342, and number 1 is deffinatley clutch.dizzy end, finaly looking from the passenger wing the dizzy deff rotates anticlockwise,

 

when piston 1 is at tdc where will the dizzy arm be pointing, im guessign skywards?

 

as for the cam timing i fitted the belt myself, i have fited several before with no problems but im always doubtful, i lined al the timing holes up and fitted the pins to lock them inplace, fitted the belt etc, the only thing that makes me think it is wrong is that it roates quite freely, not like when you pull the plugs out, just some revolotins seem easier than others, and help advie desperatley needed

 

i know the battery is a bit deda it was rotatoing faster the first 100 attempts i have just slowly killed it

 

vid here http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k296/con...notstarting.flv

 

 

ta in advance

Edited April 12, 2007 by M_R_205

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Have you got a spark at all?

 

Even if the timing is way out you should still get a spark somewhere.

 

Graham.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

First off I'm feeling for you dude; been there and know how 'nervous' one is in this position, wanting...needing it to start. Sympathy massive.

 

However, as you seem to have gathered it's always simply fuel, spark or both, IF the engine is sound, i.e. compression is good.

 

If you have spark, which you haven't said, AND you have fuel (which you also haven't said) and everything else is in order it will fire. If you have the cam pullies on the right way, which they must be if the holes line up as you said, there's not much else you can do about the timing, so that can't be the issue.

 

If the ECU has power, then I suggest you just confirm spark and fuel. (No expert here but) Are the carbs primed? I reckon it'll be one of those 2 things; fuel or spark.

 

Please get back to us.

Edited April 13, 2007 by DrSarty

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

sorry being rater tired and a little druunk i mised aload of info

 

its definatley sparking dont know how good the spark is, but i pulled the plug out earthed it and it had a nce litle blue spark,

 

fuel, the pump is pumping im guessign the carbs are working as there is a litle petrol in the manifold,

 

valve timing, im a bit nerveous on this as i always think iv done it rong (o far i aint, touch wood) any way lined all the holes in thu pullys up and they were fine, (dr sarty, you said `If you have the cam pullies on the right way` is there an exhaust and inlet pully, (im just using the standard ones) as i did the timing myself lighning them up etc could it be possible i put them on wrongly, deffinatley no valve hit though..)

 

as for ignition timing, most likely cause but i think iv got it spot on, (tell me if im wrong) this is wht i did, got piston one to top ded centre (btw using dizzy of 8v and adaptor for the carbs) lighned up the dizzy drive that bolts on to the end of the cam so that the rotor arm was poiting directly up, then fitted the dizzy and cap so the the arm was bang in the midle of one of the poles and fitted the lead to piston one, then from that one went round fitting the leads in the order 1342 in an (from passenger wing) anti clockwise direction

 

time for another stupid question, im not going to dammage the engine by turning it over so much? (im guessing it wont be pumping much oil to the cam thats all)

 

almost forgot piston number 3 is garanteed to fire a flame out the ports, what could this mean????

 

again thanks for any help im pulling my hair out with this!!!!

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

almost forgot piston number 3 is garanteed to fire a flame out the ports, what could this mean????

Dizzy leads in the wrong order or timing way out?

 

I've never had it so bad it flames out of the ports but first time I ever replaced the leads it popped quite abit until I got them right.

 

Graham.

[pugit666 2]

i'm having the same problem. even with the flame from no.3.

 

mine are on bike carbs so i rang bogg bros, they said its probably cos the carbs just need jetting to suit the car and it won't start as they are not getting enough fuel

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

i'm having the same problem. even with the flame from no.3.

 

mine are on bike carbs so i rang bogg bros, they said its probably cos the carbs just need jetting to suit the car and it won't start as they are not getting enough fuel

 

s*it!

 

are you running the 8valve dizzy like me and did you set it up the same as me?? the guy i bought them off recon they had bin jetted for the mi16 but he seemed a right muppet, sounds like i need to get my car down there to get it sorted, do you know how much it costs for them to rr it?

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

Dizzy leads in the wrong order or timing way out?

 

I've never had it so bad it flames out of the ports but first time I ever replaced the leads it popped quite abit until I got them right.

 

Graham.

 

pugorque, does the way i went about fitting the leads and adaptor, does that sound right? is that the way you would have done it??

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

well after having another fiddle with it still no life however it sounds like the exhaust valves aint closing intime/properly, as i can hear a hissing form the exhaust ports and when i put my hand there i can feel a puff of air , is this normal as its a puff of air not a slow rush as id guess you would get on the exhaust stroke, and lastly it bogs down once every revouloution, which makes me think one cylinder is sealing and the other 3 arnt :S the engine should be fin though as like i said its the first time iv gone to start it....

 

any ideas??

[pugit666 2]

i think boggs charge around £100 depending on time taken to sort it all out.

 

yeah i set it up like you did and mine is on the 8v ignition too

 

hope you sort it out cos mine is peeing me off at the mo

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

i think boggs charge around £100 depending on time taken to sort it all out.

 

yeah i set it up like you did and mine is on the 8v ignition too

 

hope you sort it out cos mine is peeing me off at the mo

 

did you fit the dizzy adaptor the same way as me? mines pissing me off as it sounds like it dosent have good compression , its sitting there all smug and taking the piss out of me, i think il try pinch a trailor and take it down on tuesday, which is also pay day

[pugman211 0]

Hiya!!

I watched the vid of yours a couple of times and saw the flash of flame at one point! firstly i'd say change the battery or put the charger on it. Cos i've never fitted carbs i wouldnt have a clue as to why urs aint starting, but i can send u the vid of my mi16 if u like. Only thing is cos mine was recorded on my mobile, its in 3gp format, which means it wont play on anything other than a player which can play 3gp.

 

I definately think u should check the pulleys too if your sayin u can hear sound of air on exhaust side, and other thing is do a comp test just to see if everything is sealing. Hope you get it sorted soon though, and those carbs look ACE!!!! wanna swap for a starting MI???? lol

 

Keep at it, and let me know if u want the vid clip.

 

Baz

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

Hiya!!

 

I definately think u should check the pulleys too if your sayin u can hear sound of air on exhaust side, and other thing is do a comp test just to see if everything is sealing. Hope you get it sorted soon though, and those carbs look ACE!!!! wanna swap for a starting MI???? lol

 

Keep at it, and let me know if u want the vid clip.

 

Baz

 

 

*slaps self* never thought of a compression test, if the timing is way out it wont compress, god im daft, off to halfords for a tester

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

right then been to halfords bought a nice new compression tester, did a compression test and........ piston 2 gives 50 psi (after a lot of cranking) and the rest didily squat,

 

so, its a re con engine, with the cam belt fitted myself all the timing holes apear to line up whats your thoughts peeps?

 

can the cam pullys be the wrong way round? (both number 2`s, but i have a spare number 4)

can the exhaust pully be a tooth out? (wouldnt explain the holes lineing up though :S)

can the cams be the wrong way round?? (highly unlikely as it was built buy a good company, but can i tell if they were?)

 

any ideas thoughts??????

Edited April 15, 2007 by M_R_205

[Guest Roland]

right then been to halfords bought a nice new compression tester, did a compression test and........ piston 2 gives 50 psi (after a lot of cranking) and the rest didily squat,

 

so, its a re con engine, with the cam belt fitted myself all the timing holes apear to line up whats your thoughts peeps?

 

can the cam pullys be the wrong way round? (both number 2`s, but i have a spare number 4)

can the exhaust pully be a tooth out? (wouldnt explain the holes lineing up though :S)

can the cams be the wrong way round?? (highly unlikely as it was built buy a good company, but can i tell if they were?)

 

any ideas thoughts??????

 

 

Is it possible to have the inlet and exhaust cams swaped by mistake?

 

How about you remove the cam belt and cams then try a compression test.

 

All valves should be closed so you should get good readings on all cylinders.

 

If all is OK then carefully check what cams go where and refit them and the belt using the locking pins for the cam wheels.

 

 

I just had a nasty thought - you say the engine was built by someone else but they didn't install the cam belt.

If the engine was turned over without the belt on then there is a fair chance that some of the valves are now bent and won't seal. However I doubt that 3 cylinders would have been affected. So I wouldn't think this is a likely problem.

 

Removing the cams and doing a compresion test will confirm the valves closing properly.

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

Is it possible to have the inlet and exhaust cams swaped by mistake?

 

How about you remove the cam belt and cams then try a compression test.

 

All valves should be closed so you should get good readings on all cylinders.

 

If all is OK then carefully check what cams go where and refit them and the belt using the locking pins for the cam wheels.

I just had a nasty thought - you say the engine was built by someone else but they didn't install the cam belt.

If the engine was turned over without the belt on then there is a fair chance that some of the valves are now bent and won't seal. However I doubt that 3 cylinders would have been affected. So I wouldn't think this is a likely problem.

 

Removing the cams and doing a compresion test will confirm the valves closing properly.

 

 

thanks for the advice, iv taken the inlet manifold off and looked at the valves and they all look straight, they all suck air in fine when cranking theres a nice vacume on my hand, but when there should be compression it pops out of the exhaust ports, all except cylinder 2 (as if all the presure has suddenly been released)

 

the cams are deff the correct way round as the inlet has the notch for the rotor arm and the exhaust dosent

 

but it seems like a definate exhaust side problem

 

being a compleate novice with engines (out of choise ) do i just have to unbolt all the cam retainers? do you know the torque setting for tightening them back up??

 

stunning idea btw would never have thought of that

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

thanks for the advice, iv taken the inlet manifold off and looked at the valves and they all look straight, they all suck air in fine when cranking theres a nice vacume on my hand, but when there should be compression it pops out of the exhaust ports, all except cylinder 2 (as if all the presure has suddenly been released)

 

the cams are deff the correct way round as the inlet has the notch for the rotor arm and the exhaust dosent

 

but it seems like a definate exhaust side problem

 

being a compleate novice with engines (out of choise ) do i just have to unbolt all the cam retainers? do you know the torque setting for tightening them back up??

 

stunning idea btw would never have thought of that

 

i wouldnt go to the hassle of removing all the cams and belts etc when you could just get a cylinder leakage test done. that would give you a fair idea what was at fault then.

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

i wouldnt go to the hassle of removing all the cams and belts etc when you could just get a cylinder leakage test done. that would give you a fair idea what was at fault then.

 

how do you do one of them??? lol like i said, novice here

 

edit:ignore that just read up on it, sounds like a good idea i may get in touch with a mobike mechanic see if he can do one for me save me towing it or trailoring it

Edited April 15, 2007 by M_R_205

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

No-one, including me, has clarified what they mean by 'cam pullies on the wrong way round'. They each have stamped on them a little triangle and also the number, which could be 2, 3 or 4. This number should face outwards i.e. twrds the cam cover.

 

Again, I feel for you. It probably is something really simple, and doing the comp test was a great leap forward. 50psi at one and zilch at the other 3 means means valves aren't concurrently closing in my relatively limited experience, meaning either wrong cams or wildly wrong timing. When you put the cam belt on, did the holes line up again after two complete crankshaft revolutions?

 

I feel you muster tinker, one thing at a time IN THE FIRST INSTANCE to find out why you have no even compression across all four pots. This is the starting point for me on this; no decent, sealed combustion chamber to produce a power stroke = one x no starter and one x unhappy owner.

 

We all (I confidently speculate) want you to be a happy Mi owner. Find the compression fault first and then, if necessary, find any fuel or spark issues secondly.

 

Regards

 

Rich

Edited April 15, 2007 by DrSarty

[pugman211 0]

If it was me, i would take the belt off again (seeing as u fitted it, it wont be a problem to put back on). arrange the exhaust cam into a place where none of the valves are open, and then do the comp test on all 4 pots. (i dont see the point in spending money if you can work this bit out urself)

 

Then that will give u clear info if the exhaust valves are bent (u cant tell if a valve is bent by looking at it as they bend at the bottom where it meets the head). before you do that though, make sure the inlet cam too is in a place where none of the valves are open - hence accurate comp test results.

 

depending on the results then u can decide what to do next. (another tip tho, dont rush it!!! take ur time and the answers will come)

[jackherer 543]

No-one, including me, has clarified what they mean by 'cam pullies on the wrong way round'. They each have stamped on them a little triangle and also the number, which could be 2, 3 or 4. This number should face outwards i.e. twrds the cam cover.

 

The pulleys are offset so if you put them on backwards they will be misaligned with the crank pulley, the water pump and the tensioners so you wouldn't actually be able to fit the belt on.

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

The pulleys are offset so if you put them on backwards they will be misaligned with the crank pulley, the water pump and the tensioners so you wouldn't actually be able to fit the belt on.

 

 

well if thats the case the pullies are on fine ( i thought dr-sarty ment there was inlet and exhaust pullies)

 

anyhoo after starting at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:4-Stroke-Engine.gif i am off to pull the cam cover off and check the cam alighnment, as im guessing the exhaust valves are opening on the compression stroke or something daft like that, and hoping nowt is bent

 

btw if you poke a tiny mirror into the inlet port you can see all of the valve to see if its bent and they look fine, as for the exhaust valves i cant get anywhere near them to think of looking down lol

Edited April 15, 2007 by M_R_205

[jackherer 543]

They don't need to bend much to not seal, you wouldn't necessarily see it.

 

Did you turn it over by hand before turning it on the starter?

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

They don't need to bend much to not seal, you wouldn't necessarily see it.

 

Did you turn it over by hand before turning it on the starter?

 

 

hey, yea i gave it 4 turns to alow for the belt streching etc and check that non of the valves hit, which they didnt and afte r 4 turns the holes all lined up again, im thinking of getting mobile mechganic to do a cylinder leakage test, as i cant see why its not compressing

 

also a mate said that on his old mini on of the valves was sticking? (never heard of that one before but..) giving him very low compression in that cylinder, could this be the same thing????

Edited April 16, 2007 by M_R_205

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

well i found out whats wrong, 3 exhaust valves are bent, dont know how 3 but they are, i got angry with it this morning and pulled the head off to find them not sealing at all back out withthe engine and back to the engine builders yet more monney i cant afford oh well iat least i know whats wrong with it

 

oh btw would i gain anything from fitting a number 4 pully on the inlet?

as i have one spare

 

cheers

Edited April 16, 2007 by M_R_205