T16 Question...

[hafslund 0]

Hey guys...

 

The 2l turbo engine from 405 T16, XU10J4TE or something....

 

How much power would the engine stand with uppgraded turbo, inlet manifold, intercooler, injection etc?

 

Which parts are the first to give? Pistons? rods? crankshaft

 

The reason I'm asking is that I've got a 205 fitted with this engine, modified exhaust manifold, GT30 turbo, custom inletmanifold, new intercooler, alcon injection etc etc.....

 

All of the external components can take up to 450 BHP, but how will the internals cope with power close to 400 BHP? Don't want to destroy it on a rolling road...

 

Quick summary...The engine is standard, "acsessories" custom, how much reliable power ( for a race car) can I get?

 

Best regards

 

Fredrik

Edited March 19, 2007 by hafslund

[TKH 0]

Everything gets problems at that power. The gearbox will not last long with that much torque. Clutch will die in seconds. Mapping will be critical to internals. As will at the other specs. Even down to fuel and oil used will have a massive effect on life. Age and condition of engine will be a massive factor too. But really your pushing it so far past what you can reliably achieve you will get so many problems.

[hafslund 0]

The clutch and gearbox are not the concern... The question is how much HP can the standard T16 bottom end cope with and what gives first?

 

The engine at hand is in good condition...

 

When I'm going to the rolling road with it,I would like a ~max figure I shouldn't exceed...

Edited March 20, 2007 by hafslund

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Seems to me like your asking the impossible. First off surely you want the dyno runner to go to the rev limiter to do the run properly? The reading/measurement comes out after that. It's not like you watch the numbers go up and then can decide when to back off surely?

 

Also with all those mods, you should just be glad it survives the run. The output figure is kind of secondary (and almost immaterial) after that, don't you think?

 

Good luck

[TKH 0]

Personally I would not push it past about 5 or perhaps to 7 psi over stock if you want any sort of longevity. Thats assuming you have plentiful cooling, good fully synthetic oil, well mapped and good fresh super unleaded fuel.

 

I am positive you could push it much further for a one of run. But if there is any detonation, over heating or leaning off of the air fuel mix I would stop the run immediately until you work out whats going wrong. But that is not to say the car will last more than a few miles at that power.

 

You really are talking steel rods, forged low comp pistons, full uprated fixing kit, large capacity baffled sup, wide band self mapping ECU, large injectors, boost control and good gaskets to get any sort of reliability at the power your looking at.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

The standard T16 bottomend and head can do 450bhp wihtout problems (as proven by our French friends).

[TKH 0]

He asked for a reliable engine though. They do not last and compression is a problem. You also have to be very careful with everything to get it to work. Its like you can spin a standard 1360cc TU bottom end to over 10k and get over 150bhp from a virtually standard bottom end. But they do not last long when you do.

Edited March 20, 2007 by TKH

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

He asked for a reliable engine though. They do not last and compression is a problem. You also have to be very careful with everything to get it to work. Its like you can spin a standard 1360cc TU bottom end to over 10k and get over 150bhp from a virtually standard bottom end. But they do not last long when you do.

 

How come compression is a problem when it's as low as 8:1?

 

I've got mates running 2 bar pressure on 9:1 and 9.4:1 compression with good managements.

It's not like we're in the early 90'ies anymore is it.

[hafslund 0]

The reliability a side, the bottom end can cope with power up to 450HP? what french guys are you reffering to?

The standard T16 bottomend and head can do 450bhp wihtout problems (as proven by our French friends).

 

I've heard that the bottom end can take 250HP, 300 HP, 400 HP and now 450 HP...if The fact is 250, it's no point in me to even try it on the dyno without swapping pistons, rods etc...

However, if the figure should be closer to 400 it's worth a shot...

[pdd144c 0]

Standard cranks aren't much good for over 330bhp, well for racing purposes anyway.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

The guys at FullPowerTeam and JSO Club have succesfully achieved these kind of power.

 

In the above I was not talking about reliability.....maybe it lasts 50k, maybe only 10k...who knows? If it should be reliable for a longer period of time then I would say that forged pistons and rods are a much much better option.

[TKH 0]

Feel I have to say at this point id have to admit that I really only tune TU engines for the most part. What I have said is mostly what I have been told from people I know and trust. But thats not to say that I really was paying all that much attention. It sounds like most of you know a lot more about than I. I believe everything that Hilgie and Black Mi16 have said. You should probably ignore most of what I have said hafslund past significantly tuning a standard engine you should expects the service life of any engine to drop off radically. Sorry for any misinformation.

 

 

PS, Think I will stick to the TU threads from now on lol

Edited March 20, 2007 by TKH

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

standard crank of a T16 is a whole different animal compared to an S16 crank....it has single counter balancing and is forged instead of cast.

[hafslund 0]

PS, Think I will stick to the TU threads from now on lol

 

If you think it's worth writing, I feel it's worth reading...please write whatever's on your mind..

 

As for the engine, it is in a track day car and will probarbly be upprated next winter anyway.

It looks like the power we're looking for can be achived with the standard internals, so we'll give it a go.

 

EDIT:I wrote alcon injection in my first post, but it should of course be autronic..

[kutija 1 1 Cars]

I would say it will hold 400 hp for sure....

Just make everything happend after 3000 rpm,closer to 3500 rpm...

Anyway with GT30 things will happen after 3500 rpm...

You should listen to knock also...

You shouldn't be worried about boost as t16 holds above 1.5 bars without problem,anyway I wouldn't go over 1.7 bars and on Gt30 at 1.5 bars you should be very close to 400 hp if not more with upgraded parts you mentioned.

[hafslund 0]

Thanks for all your input...

It will be very exciting next weekend when it will start for the first time...

 

 

[pdd144c 0]

Looks great! Loads of custom bits. Did you make them all yourself?

 

Paul.

[van cleef 0]

Very nice indeed that thing sure will move with a nice power to weight.

[adrian_gti 0]

very nice... should be fun being FWD

[petert 550]

I think the gearbox will be your limiting factor. They don't like that much torque!

 

I run an Autronic on my race car and I can't say how much I'm impressed with it. One of the nice features is the ability to map the fuel by throttle position, but the ignition by manifold pressure. A great feature for forced induction engines. If you can get the Autotune function working you'll like it even more!

 

Autronic is a full sequential system. Can I stongly advise that you position the reference trigger so it fires at TDC. This also determines the closing position of the injectors, making it easy to position the injection pulse in the induction stroke. Have a look at the wicked torque curve on this engine - 2L, TB's and big cams. I doubt it would have done the same on multipoint/batch.

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?a...ost&id=2044

 

There are some great software tools on the Autronic site for setting up injectors, triggers etc.

 

One of the great things about the Autronic is its ability to handle large injectors at idle. So you'll be able to choose a large injector for the boosted power, yet it will idle like a kitten. Let me know if you need any setup maps.

[hafslund 0]

The gearbox is a Peugeot sport 6 speed with a ZF diff and a rigid 215mm four pad clutch with upprated pressureplate.

 

it will be Exciting to see what will give first. We'll take it easy with it at first and use it on trackdays only, and if it holds race it in supersaloon next season.

 

I'll let you know about those maps Peter , they are firing it up this weekend and it will probarbly go to the dyno next week to be set up..

 

I'll lay out the figures and graphes here as soon as I have them..

 

cheers..

[hafslund 0]

OK...

 

Tried to fire it up today, but no luck.

The camshaft sensor does not give a signal..

 

Does anyone have some wiring diagrams for it, or perhaps just know what should go where? It's the original T16 hall sensor...

 

Fredrik

[petert 550]

Assuming it's the same as the S16 sensor, you need to add a current limiting resistor and a pull up resistor.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?a...post&id=581

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?a...post&id=582

[hafslund 0]

thanks..

 

Will give that a go!

[hafslund 0]

Well...Now it's running...Kind of rough on the basemap, but it's going to the dyno probarbly next week...

 

Will post results\ graphes etc...