Finally Mapped

[veloce200 3]

And for a fraction of that cost its possible for QEP to supply a 220BHP solid block mi16, with the added bonus of it being Dyno mapped very soon.

 

Maybe I should let sean and Veloce drive my car to see how much real mid range torque a tuned mi has.......

 

Maxi

 

yes but I have just taken delivery of a GT28 for my 8v... so yes we will have a run in your car then I'll show you what midrange torque is about...!

[veloce200 3]

But surely oyu are contradicting the whole reason you want to use an 8v, for the nice spread of power. With a turbo you will have a certain issue of lag and sean with his midrange torque will be getting away. IT seems to me the whole 8v argment is very wooly.......

 

Maxi

 

I see what you mean but I was not saying the 8v was better, my point was merely that chasing lots of power with an MI doesn't mean it will be quick, and that weight is the enemy. If I was going to compete in under 2litre class I WOULD use and alloy block with 16v head to be within regs. However this year I am developing various turbo kits so it doesn't make sense for me to get into atmo tuning. My plan is to offer the cheapest bang for buck for 205.

 

oh and apologies to the original poster. it was a terrific and no doubt terrifying result !

Edited February 2, 2007 by veloce200

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

yes but I have just taken delivery of a GT28 for my 8v... so yes we will have a run in your car then I'll show you what midrange torque is about...!

Why dont we spend the same on a 16v with a nice GT28 and blow the 8v away again....?????

 

Also I was always told to go NA for track use.....

 

Maxi

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

I see what you mean but I was not saying the 8v was better, my point was merely that chasing lots of power with an MI doesn't mean it will be quick, and that weight is the enemy. If I was going to compete in under 2litre class I WOULD use and alloy block with 16v head to be within regs. However this year I am developing various turbo kits so it doesn't make sense for me to get into atmo tuning. My plan is to offer the cheapest bang for buck for 205.

 

 

And that also throws the 8v out of the water. For value and smile factor, as well as driveability, reliability and pure flat out BHP you cannot beat the big cc 16v iron blocks. The original and only argument for using a tuned 8v was for mid range torque (unless the regulations specified otherwise), yet a tuned mi will wank all over any tuned 8v and dare I say it, for less money. The cheapest bang for buck 205 (as long as your not restricted by regulations) for road and track, with lots of torque and serious grin factor is a big cc iron block.

 

Maxi

[veloce200 3]

Why dont we spend the same on a 16v with a nice GT28 and blow the 8v away again....?????

 

Also I was always told to go NA for track use.....

 

Maxi

 

agreed but then it's pricey again. i want to offer a low cost way for people to get a quick trackday car. with modern management and EBV valves you can make a turbo behave like a bigger atmo. with all the economy and tractability off boost of a std engine.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

agreed but then it's pricey again. i want to offer a low cost way for people to get a quick trackday car. with modern management and EBV valves you can make a turbo behave like a bigger atmo. with all the economy and tractability off boost of a std engine.

 

 

Yes agreed with high compression it makes off boost driving no probs and pinking not being such an issue with management. However, the whole 8v thing is still a bit of a load of toffee to be honest.

 

-Oil surge, not such an issue with later engines

-Mid range torque, as Rob has proved, no probs with an mi

-Value, a tuned 8v to get any sensible figures COSTS A LOT. With a very small budget, massive firgures can be attained from the 16v unit

 

So the only factor holding back the 16v option is regulations. SOmething which is restricting the unit in motorsport. Not trackdays.

 

Maxi

[veloce200 3]

. However, the whole 8v thing is still a bit of a load of toffee to be honest.

 

I quite like toffee

and the thing is no matter how much you spend on an MI engined car - on track the following are what counts:

driver, weight, handling.. which is why when you see a 1.6 8v demolish iron block MI's you feel sorry for the MI driver and in awe of the 8v driver, especially when he was 2 classes below.

[Rippthrough 98]

I quite like toffee

and the thing is no matter how much you spend on an MI engined car - on track the following are what counts:

driver, weight, handling.. which is why when you see a 1.6 8v demolish iron block MI's you feel sorry for the MI driver and in awe of the 8v driver, especially when he was 2 classes below.

 

Hardly a point though is it, put the driver in the mi16 and strip the car and watch what happens.

[Alastairh 47]

Not really, I know a alloy block mi with 48s, dry sump cams etc, running roughly 200 brake, and that wins all the 2.0 na group, and prity much all the 2.0 turbo groups (scoobies etc) with a compination of a good driver and well set up suspension. So would a 1600 8v be able to beat all that?

Edited February 2, 2007 by Alastairh

[James_m 0]

I disagree about the oil surge thing, I could never get my 8v to surge at all on track, yet i had an 306 S16 for a little while, and i had the stop light coming on a few times on the road....

One thing is though, ive never seen a high powered 8v, certainly on here the highest powered ive seen with graph's is Seans.

Plus this whole arguement about characteristics, to get a 8v to 16v matching power - 180bhp+ your going to have to run seriously wild cams, therfore its not going to have the strong 0-5k torque, and its never going to rev like a 16v, so you could end up with a compromised engine which only works over a narrow power band which other than oil surge, was the only advantage(you could argue) the 8v ever had over the 16v.

[smckeown 1]

Plus this whole arguement about characteristics, to get a 8v to 16v matching power - 180bhp+ your going to have to run seriously wild cams, therfore its not going to have the strong 0-5k torque, and its never going to rev like a 16v, so you could end up with a compromised engine which only works over a narrow power band which other than oil surge, was the only advantage(you could argue) the 8v ever had over the 16v.

 

Absolutely not, honestly, my new cam is rally spec and it's designed from the ground up (and I mean every component) to generate massive mid range punch and a wide spread of torque. A peaky engine is exactly what I have described it must not have, because peaky engines with n arrow power bands are SLOW in the real world.

 

Longman's have produced MANY an 8v that had great mid range and still hasnt got a compromised top end. for SURE it will NEVER have the top end of a 16v.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Forgive me if I sound terribly ignorant, but this whole debate seems to be about as relevant as discussing whether Red Gtis are better than White ones. It is entirely down to personal preferance, the intended purpose of the car and any regulations (if competing).

 

Apart from some interesting information about torque figures, the last 10 pages just seems to be a complete bastardisation of the original topic.

 

Mos - sounds like you have a nice setup to look forward to. Can we tentatively ask what the budget was?

 

I'd love to see some videos of this in action (likewise Maxi's beast and any of the other 200+bhp 16valvers that are currenty in progress).

 

 

Now, why dont we have a discussion about what is best between length or girth?

[petert 554]

I disagree about the oil surge thing, I could never get my 8v to surge at all on track,

 

Not driving hard enough. Any XU9 will surge with a good driver in a well set up car.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Although an Mi16 is I believe technically not allowed in the modified production class in sprints, they are never kicked out.

 

The rule the fail on is that "the block must be externally identifiable as one originally available in the car" ie it doesnt matter what its made or, the block just has to look the same from the outside but I think theres a small bit of ribbing thats different to the 8v. Its so minor that they let it go. Likewise 205 sierra blocks in Escorts as they have the oil pressure or some other pickup in a different place but again they let it go. Heads are free to do what you want. Its only things like XE's in Escorts that get people agitated!

 

In the SE the class is 1.4-2 litre and my 790kg Visa is only putting out 168bhp but I had a couple of class wins last year combined with some worse results where my lack of lsd lets me down.

 

Go to the West country however and its a waste of time for me. Doesnt matter if they are running the 1.4-2 litre split or 1.8 and above as its always the same cars, a pair of 250bhp XE Astras, theres a 230bhp 205 Mi16, another one with similar power and traction control (owner used to work for Benetton F1 back in the day) and countless Escorts putting out 200bhp or more, normally as they are 2.4 litre but run in the 2 litre class often (FFS etc). I just got annhilated at Castle Combe due to power

 

I have a Pug sport baffled sump and ive been ok. 8v's can still be good in the road going class and if you stick to the SE, a stripped out light one with 160bhp and decent slicks would be a front runner in modified at most venues.

 

I have yet to see a 205/309/visa with a gti6 or s16 block compete however. They may get away with it as mentioned above but im not sure how different they are visually from the outside

[Batfink 201]

how about a mod to do a clever thing like split these threads into two separate topics

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Yawn

 

[Batfink 201]

well if an 8v fanboy wants a 230bhp high torque race engine for a good price i know of one for about £3k i think. Then you can race mr 16v fanboy - Maxi

[mos 1]

ok some figures i have measured from the graphs i got at mikeanics

i am intending to send copies of the graphs to matt at qep tomorrow as he kindly offered to scan them as i have no scanner

so hopfully he can scan and post them next week sometime

 

here goes anyway

 

2000rpm 30 bhp 75lbft

3000rpm 68bhp 121lbft

4000rpm 100bhp 129lbft

5000rpm 142bhp 148lbft

6000rpm 190bhp 171lbft

7000rpm 224bhp 171lbft

7500rpm 224bhp 163lbft

 

peak bhp is 232bhp at 7441rpm

peak torque is 171lbft at 6421rpm

 

the engine set me back somewhere in the region of £2500 or so

 

thanks

 

mark

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Lost track of who even started this thread heh. That sounds like a hell of a lot of power for comparatively little money. Got a spec list for it?

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

Lost track of who even started this thread heh. That sounds like a hell of a lot of power for comparatively little money. Got a spec list for it?

 

The spec is in the FIRST post of this thread.

 

Good result mate !

[GLPoomobile 958]

the engine set me back somewhere in the region of £2500 or so

 

Seems pretty good value Not that I have that kind of cash sitting in my back pocket mind you, but not as expensive as I would expect for the results achieved.

 

Was this price just for the engine build (ie excluding ITBs, ECU etc)? Did you provide the engine? Was mapping extra (I assume so)?

[Alastairh 47]

Man i bet thats fun between 4 and 6k.

[mos 1]

Seems pretty good value Not that I have that kind of cash sitting in my back pocket mind you, but not as expensive as I would expect for the results achieved.

 

Was this price just for the engine build (ie excluding ITBs, ECU etc)? Did you provide the engine? Was mapping extra (I assume so)?

 

yes thats for the engine only

i provided the bare engine

yes its more than double that with the throttle bodies and mapping and manifold and exhaust

the throttle bodies kit, loom injectors and manifold were about £2000

but a lot of people already have bodies etc so there cost here is nil

the miles exhaust manifold and blue flame exhaust cost another £675

and mapping was £320

 

no it certainly was not cheap!

 

but i lost a lot more than that in depreciation on my last car in less than 2 years so i though as i dont do a big commute these days and my mileage for work is probably no more 50miles a week i would just use this car for daily transport to be honest if i get the job i was interviewed for yesterday i be even closer to home about a 2 mile trip to the office!

i guess i am just building the 205 i always wanted to build when i was 10 years younger and a student but could not afford to back then!

 

thanks

 

mark

[veloce200 3]

yes thats for the engine only

i provided the bare engine

yes its more than double that with the throttle bodies and mapping and manifold and exhaust

the throttle bodies kit, loom injectors and manifold were about £2000

but a lot of people already have bodies etc so there cost here is nil

the miles exhaust manifold and blue flame exhaust cost another £675

and mapping was £320

 

no it certainly was not cheap!

 

but i lost a lot more than that in depreciation on my last car in less than 2 years so i though as i dont do a big commute these days and my mileage for work is probably no more 50miles a week i would just use this car for daily transport to be honest if i get the job i was interviewed for yesterday i be even closer to home about a 2 mile trip to the office!

i guess i am just building the 205 i always wanted to build when i was 10 years younger and a student but could not afford to back then!

 

thanks

 

mark

 

it's a very good result. not cheap but good value nonetheless. a friend spent that kind of cash on a KR 16v and got nothing like those figures. Sorry the thread went crazy - largely my fault - i just can't help taking the bait when people slate my little 8v..

 

so all told best part of £5k. now if a bolt on kit for 8v brought figures even remotely close for half the price then surely there'd be life in the old 8v...?

[Rob Thomson 6]

I'm a little perplexed by the obsession with mid-range on a track car.

 

I took my standard 1.6 out for a thrash down the local A/B-roads and lanes the other night, and once on the move I don't think it ever dropped below 5k and spent most of the time screaming between 5.5k and the limiter. Who gives a f*** how much grunt it has at 4k?

 

My rally car (standard-ish 106 Rallye) is dead below 5k. But that only ever matters in corners that fall into the zone between the stupidly low 1st gear, and the much taller 2nd. That just isn't a problem on the 205, even with the 1.6 gear ratios.

 

So I don't need a particularly wide power band on my standard road car or rally car, so why do you need that on a track car?