1.6 Gti Cambelt Failure

[Daxed 7]

Lesson Learnt :- DO NOT continue to drive around in an old car with unknown cambelt history whilst waiting for the guy you bought it from, to ask the guy he bought it from, the cambelt history.

 

Slowing down for a 40MPH limit, closed throttle, 5th gear, low revs, but could hear the pistons mashing into the valves for the couple of seconds it took me to realise what was happening and drop the clutch. Think the noise had stopped by then anyway as the pistons moved the valves nicely out of the way.

 

Have been having a search and am just looking for some general views and hopefully a better understanding of possible costs.

 

I dont have a compression tester and the awful noise it made would suggest that just replacing the belt, pump and tensioner and giving it a go is probably being optimistic.

 

The engine is a real good one, uses no oil, revs freely and pulls well. Is it worth taking the head off, replacing the bent valves etc, or just more economical to buy a second hand head or complete engine and swap the lot? I have no interest in making this car a 16v as already have one in progress, this is (was) the daily run around. Any work will have to be carried out outside the house without cover and the thought of that doesnt thrill me to bits. Assuming that I can get a head gasket set / timing belt kit from GSF or the likes, how much are head bolts and new valves etc from Pug? Also any ideas as to how many valves could have been damaged?

 

I suppose the obvious way forward is to take the head off and have a look see.

 

Thanks for bothering to read. This is a cathartic post for my benefit more than anything as I am starting to get sick of my strange fascination for these little foreign roller-skates. Ever since it started I dont seem to have had a car that works for more than 10 minutes.

[steve@cornwall 100]

Lesson Learnt :- DO NOT continue to drive around in an old car with unknown cambelt history whilst waiting for the guy you bought it from, to ask the guy he bought it from, the cambelt history.

 

Slowing down for a 40MPH limit, closed throttle, 5th gear, low revs, but could hear the pistons mashing into the valves for the couple of seconds it took me to realise what was happening and drop the clutch. Think the noise had stopped by then anyway as the pistons moved the valves nicely out of the way.

 

Have been having a search and am just looking for some general views and hopefully a better understanding of possible costs.

 

I dont have a compression tester and the awful noise it made would suggest that just replacing the belt, pump and tensioner and giving it a go is probably being optimistic.

 

The engine is a real good one, uses no oil, revs freely and pulls well. Is it worth taking the head off, replacing the bent valves etc, or just more economical to buy a second hand head or complete engine and swap the lot? I have no interest in making this car a 16v as already have one in progress, this is (was) the daily run around. Any work will have to be carried out outside the house without cover and the thought of that doesnt thrill me to bits. Assuming that I can get a head gasket set / timing belt kit from GSF or the likes, how much are head bolts and new valves etc from Pug? Also any ideas as to how many valves could have been damaged?

 

Seeing as it's a daily runner, would have thought it's cheapest/easiest to get a s/h engine, as long as you can source one readily. Can always strip the other one once it's out!

 

I suppose the obvious way forward is to take the head off and have a look see.

 

Thanks for bothering to read. This is a cathartic post for my benefit more than anything as I am starting to get sick of my strange fascination for these little foreign roller-skates. Ever since it started I dont seem to have had a car that works for more than 10 minutes.

 

For a daily runabout, I would have thought it quicker and cheaper to fit a replacement engine,depends how long it takes to source one. strip the old one and have a look while you wait. If damage is limited to valves and the pistons are ok- fit a good s/h head?

Edited January 15, 2007 by steve@cornwall

[taylorspug 7]

If the engine is a good unit, then fix it. Unless you get a proven good engine to replace it with its too much of a risk, as most 1.6 units out there today are past their best.

 

Work could easily be done in a week, either salvaging the original head or fitting a replacement (depends really on what it looks like when you get it off.

[Alastairh 47]

Yeah, if it was originally a good unit, then try fixing it.

 

Whip the head off and see

[jeremy 68]

Ok its is your lucky day, or not so lucky depends on how you look at it. I had this happen to me on Christmas day. Thankfully I was only 500 yards from my house, and managed to beg borrow or steel a car or lift for the following three weeks until I got my car fixed.

 

Firstly I fitted a new cambelt and did a compression test, this clearly indicated that one of the valves had had a very nice headache when it hit the piston as there was zero compression, so head off time it was. I had changed two HG before, so this gave me the confidence to do most of the work involved as essentially it is the same. I had another head off a 1.9 and the valves were the same as my 1.6, however they can be different I guess it depends on if it is an old 105bhp 1.6 or later 115bhp 1.6.

 

I took the head off the engine this took me about 3 maybe 4 hours. The method I use is essentially that described in the Haynes manual which is pretty good. I also use bank bags and label the bolts etc as I put them in the bags as otherwise you will not have a clue when you have to put it all back together again. I also use masking tape on the pipes and wires with corresponding references to the head etc.

 

I then took both heads to an engineering works, where they cut all eight valves in using one from the donor head, did a minor bit of welding on the head and then skimmed it. Cost £110 cash. This include dismanteling the heads and re-assembling the one off the car ie putting the camshaft back in.

 

Now the first time I did a HG on my 1.6 I used new bolts, however I went to do this on my 1.9 and sheared a new one it was my fault however. To cut a long story short I re-used the original bolts, although when torqing up the head I do each bolt a 100 degrees then onto the next in the correct order finnally until each one has been done up by 300 degrees, and I have never had a problem I may just be lucky.

 

The parts you will/may need are

HG yes £16ish

Head to thermostat housing yes had to buy two £5ish from Peugeot

Air inlet manifold gasket yes £4ish

Exhaust manifold gaskets x4 possibly £12ish for all 4

Cambelt yes £9ish

Oil and filter yes £14ish

New coolant antifreeze I cannot remember as had some already.

You can buy a kit for the HG, or get the pieces seperatley, and it is up to you to decide it you want to re-use the original cylinder head bolts. In Haynes or Porter it gives you their tollerances if you want to re-use them. I have never checked them I must be a gambling sort of person! Well I do own a 205!!!

 

Total time spent about 2 to 2.5 days as it took me ages to tension the new belt. I found it was best to put the pully wheel back on the crank and do it by using dowels to initially get the positioning right then removed the bottom dowel whilst taking up any addition slack whilst turning the crank very slightly. You must still check that it hasn't jumped a tooth on the belt. Also I had ann assistant when do this as it helps no end.

 

What I will say is the reason it took me so long is because I was having to do it in bits and pieces, outside, so taking up time going backwards and forwards to the garage. However other than not having air tools I have almost all the Halfords proffesional tool range making life a whole lot easier.

 

Hope this helps, if you need any other info then let me know.

Jeremy

[ORB 227 1 Cars]

shame your in surrey, as I have a few heads kicking about.

[Daxed 7]

Thanks for the assistance guys and jeremy thanks for the extended information.

 

I managed to get a couple of hours work on the car, but since then has been raining non stop.

 

Had a right struggle trying to remove the upper engine mounting bolt in the head. Tight as hell, and not getting any easier to turn as it comes out. Is the bolt pictured the only one into the head through the mounting, as the Haynes mentioned two?

 

 

Things have however moved on somewhat. Have bought a complete replacement 1.6 lump and that now gives additional options I would appreciate some views on.

 

1) Continue what I am doing, try to get the damn engine mounting bolt out of the head, swap heads complete with the one off the new engine, replace cambelt/water pump/tensioners with the engine in situ.

 

2) Swap entire engines

 

Whats the best / easiest option? Just swapping heads would save me having to get a hoist, but would leave the associated hassle of the cambelt and depending on the cambelt history of the replacement engine I can either drop it in as it stands or replace it outside of the car whilst maintaining the timing. The clutch condition on my car is unknown other than it works fine. Whilst I am in this position would it be best to go for the full swap and check/replace the clutch at the same time?

 

ps: Mods, this is my first attempt at attaching a picture, I did re read the rules/guidelines and adjust the filesize accordingly but still found the process confusing. I hope I am within the rules.

[jackherer 543]

depending on the cambelt history of the replacement engine I can either drop it in as it stands

 

Learn the lesson mate, no cambelt history means much at all, just put a new belt on ffs

 

ps: Mods, this is my first attempt at attaching a picture, I did re read the rules/guidelines and adjust the filesize accordingly but still found the process confusing. I hope I am within the rules.

 

well within the rules, thanks for putting the effort in

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

if it was me Id slap a new belt and tesnioner on the other engine and drop that in for now then pull the other apart and rebuild it out the car as its easier. Once its all done swap them back over, unless the other engine runs flawless in which case just keep it as a spare or sell for a small profit.

[t16ryan 1]

i would put a belt and probaly headgasket on spare engine and drop it in its just as easy if not easier to swap the engine than to swap the heads

[Anthony 1,000]

If needed Steve, I have (well, will have when I pick it up from my friend) a spare GTi head complete with valves and everything that you're welcome to - it will need a skim as I kinda cooked it () but if nothing else the valves etc should all be fine if yours are bent.

 

(PS Reminds me that I need to talk to you about picking up this beam and giving you the 1.9 caliper bolts that you wanted)

[Daxed 7]

Thanks for the further advice guys.

 

Having digested your comments, and receiving confirmation that the cambelt on the replacement lump was changed 18 months and 2000 miles ago I have just ordered myself a hoist and plan on replacing the entire unit.

 

Anthony, I just pushed the beam to one side in case you wanted it. I will happily bring it to a South meet.

 

The reason I was after some 1.9 girling calliper bolts was that following a call to a pug dealer in Oxford, they quoted me £7 per bolt. That not only scared me to death but surprised me when my local dealer sold me a new set for pennies, so all sorted there.

 

I would be interested in the head as would be a shame to bin my existing engine following the upcoming transplant as it really does seem very sound.

[jim21070 2]

Having digested your comments, and receiving confirmation that the cambelt on the replacement lump was changed 18 months and 2000 miles ago I have just ordered myself a hoist and plan on replacing the entire unit.

 

I would be interested in the head as would be a shame to bin my existing engine following the upcoming transplant as it really does seem very sound.

 

Sounds like a bit of a suspect job was done last time the belt was changed. Be worth having a look at the tensioner. I guess the failure had nothing to do with the water pump seizing or being fouled by a lump of something circulating with the coolant. Might be worth a check though.

[jeremy 68]

Hello there again.

 

Personally I would just repair your existing engine, unless you truely know the condition of the replacement engine, as better the devil you know than the devil you don't. You may find you replace the engine only for the HG to go a few weeks down the line. As for people suggesting swapping the engine then swapping it back once you have fixed the original just sounds like doing double the work.

 

As for the engine mount bolts I can confirm that access is tight and it is just a case of turning them slowly, but just keep in there, there is also another one located down abit and towards the rear of the enging. What ever you do unless you have a photographic memory just remember to label everything up, as this will save you loads of time when you get to put everything back together again.

 

You have mentioned also replacing the water pump and tensioner, although this is not a bad idea, however I never had and never had any problems, I could just be very lucky.

 

Also iirc you have access to another head that just needs skimming this should cost around £30 to £40 including the engineering company taking the cam off and putting it all back together again.

[Guest BrainFluid]

I dunno mate, if you have a spare engine to hand I think its easier and cheaper to swop them over than swop a head over.

 

Hell you could buy 2 or 3 lumps for what you spent on doing yours. Plus you get to check all your hoses condition at the same time. And you get to put a nice clean engine in.

 

That said I've changed more head gaskets (4) than I've swopped engines over (1)! lol

 

(oh, you dont have to hoist the engine out btw you could drop it...)

[jeremy 68]

I dunno mate, if you have a spare engine to hand I think its easier and cheaper to swop them over than swop a head over.

 

Hell you could buy 2 or 3 lumps for what you spent on doing yours. Plus you get to check all your hoses condition at the same time. And you get to put a nice clean engine in.

 

That said I've changed more head gaskets (4) than I've swapped engines over (1)! lol

 

(oh, you dont have to hoist the engine out btw you could drop it...)

 

I think that if you are a novice mechanic you need to consider the following:

 

There will be a lot more items to disturb if you take the engine out, by that I mean wiring and pipes, so potentially more to get wrong when putting it all back together again.

 

You may need further additional tools adding to the cost of the job.

 

I too only speak from limited experience 3 times taking a head off and once removing an engine then putting it back in. Yes it is true you can take the lump out from underneath however I found it impossible to get it back in so hired a hoist to lift the engine up once in the engine bay. The job was done in what seemed seconds, as opposed to the good hour or so I wasted trying to do it with a small Halfords type trolley jack. The cost of the hoist was £18. I was lucky to get it delivered for free as also hired a mini 360 digger off them at the same time.

 

Also you mentioned that you could buy another three lumps for the cost of the work to the original head. Yes that is very true, but what about the cost in both money and time to go and get them? To me it would be a false economy. It would also be very unlikely that they would come with any proper history that could be verified; even then this is not a guarantee.

 

Also just before I forget Daxed (sorry I do not know your real name) to mark the distributor in relation to the thermostat housing using a flat bladed chisel. That way you will not have to worry about timing the distributor. Hope that makes sense to you.

 

Jeremy

[Daxed 7]

Sounds like a bit of a suspect job was done last time the belt was changed. Be worth having a look at the tensioner. I guess the failure had nothing to do with the water pump seizing or being fouled by a lump of something circulating with the coolant. Might be worth a check though.

 

Bit of confusion here. The cambelt history of the one that went BANG was unknown to me. The replacement engine had a new belt fitted 18 months and 2000 miles ago.

 

Thanks again for the time taken in providing your advice people. Greatly appreciated.

 

Jeremy, my name is Steve. This will be the 3rd 205 8v I have taken out but am yet to put one back in (dont ask). The first time I was walked through it under the expert help and watchful eye of Pugrallye and have since managed another unaided. So at least I have a practical understanding of the removal. The first one was dropped down on a trolley jack and pulled from underneath the car, the second I lifted upwards using a hoist. I seem to be doing this so frequently that have now purchased a hoist as I have at least one other engine (GTI-6) to drop into a shell and am sick of hiring.

 

Whilst agreeing with your comments regarding the unproven history of the new unit, it has been purchased from an active forum member and Im quite happy putting some trust in our community here and feel confidant that what I am being told isnt the usual e-bay type pack of lies. Of course the head gasket could go on the replacement, no guarantees there, but I feel that for the cost of a couple of driveshaft oil seals dropping the new engine in as-is is the route that suits me best.

 

BrainFluid does have a point about the costs to, the price of the replacement engine wouldnt cover the cost of the required gaskets, let alone getting the valve damage sorted. I do get your point regarding the additional price in both time and money to collect and youre right, it has already cost me a van hire and will be most of Saturday in time.

 

Thanks for the tip re scoring a timing mark on the distributor, am already up to speed on that one.

 

Not to sure where I am going to go with regard to fixing my existing lump, will get the head from Anthony and perhaps keep it all tucked away and see how the replacement performs.

 

The biggest problem is going to be the weather, when the hell is it going to stop raining down here?

 

Reagrding your comment about having the engine sat under the bay and lifting upwards into position with a hoist, is this preferable to dropping in from above?

[jeremy 68]

Reagrding your comment about having the engine sat under the bay and lifting upwards into position with a hoist, is this preferable to dropping in from above?

 

I put it to you at least you will not have to worry about having to remove the bonnet or hitting anything else in the engine bay if lifting the engine from below the shell. Also if you choose the other route consider whilst lowering it into the bay you would have the gearbox connected to the engine and the battery tray is in the way thus it needs to go in at an angle and this will be awkward.

[jim21070 2]

I put it to you at least you will not have to worry about having to remove the bonnet or hitting anything else in the engine bay if lifting the engine from below the shell. Also if you choose the other route consider whilst lowering it into the bay you would have the gearbox connected to the engine and the battery tray is in the way thus it needs to go in at an angle and this will be awkward.

 

Using a hoist, I found there is no need to remove the bonnet or even put it vertical, It does need a fair old tilt though to get it in/out and at the very least, paint will be scratched.

 

Although I've not done a 205, I've removed a MK IV Fiesta engine and gearbox by lifting the body off the engine and that worked brilliantly well. I dropped the engine onto a trolley, used the hoist with webbing straps slung around the chassis outriggers by the bumper mounts and up she went no problem. Drag engine/transmission out on wheels. Easy!

 

On balance, engine down and body up.

 

Sounds like a bit of a suspect job was done last time the belt was changed. Be worth having a look at the tensioner. I guess the failure had nothing to do with the water pump seizing or being fouled by a lump of something circulating with the coolant. Might be worth a check though.

 

 

Bit of confusion here. The cambelt history of the one that went BANG was unknown to me. The replacement engine had a new belt fitted 18 months and 2000 miles ago.

 

What I was trying to say, Steve, was that if the belt went after 2000 miles/18 months then that belt may have been incorrectly installed (e.g. the tensioner not set properly), the water pump may have seized or the sprockets may be damaged or out of line. Did the belt break or strip its teeth?

 

I'm with Jeremy and Nate (BrainFluid) on this one. Repair your engine. Apart from the fact that it has bent valves, you at least know everything else is good on it.

 

This rain, frustrating. I know. The only good thing is that it is giving my leak repairs a thorough test

 

Hopefully it'll soon be dry and cold. perfect weather for the sort of work you are doing...

Edited January 18, 2007 by jim21070

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Putting the bonnet vertical only takes a piece of string to hold it there so why would you not want to?

 

Hint and tip: I'd recommend the use of a load leveler, if you angle the engine/box using one of these it comes out/goes in MUCH more easily.

 

Also there is nothing stopping you ripping the top off the dead engine to see what it is like, you aren't going to lose anything. I suspect it will show damaged pistons, afterall they knocked the valves out of the way...

 

Rob

 

P.S. You aren't that far off my way home from work if the need should arise for a hint and tip. Have done 2 engine swaps on my cars.

[lagonda 41]

Recently refitted my head after a light skim (I specifically asked for just enough taken off to make it dead flat). Timing pins lined up perfectly previously, now they're slightly out. Theres not much difference, but all the same it's surprising how much there is given the small amount of metal removed.

The point of this is, don't forget the distributor will also be affected, so timing marks made should only be treated as a starting point. You will need to advance the distributor a little just to get back to the previous timing.

I'm still experimenting with my ignition timing, using the "establish pinking & retard slightly" forum recommendation. Surprising how far I've advanced distributor without hearing pinking.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Also you mentioned that you could buy another three lumps for the cost of the work to the original head. Yes that is very true, but what about the cost in both money and time to go and get them? To me it would be a false economy. It would also be very unlikely that they would come with any proper history that could be verified; even then this is not a guarantee.

 

Hey jeremy . Sure, but my point was if you had a spare already it would be easier. You still have to take/pick up the head from the metal workers. If you did not have a spare and wanted to and could find one as local as your metal workers then its just swings and roundabouts. Mind you I just presume that everyone has a tow bar and trailer to hand.

 

Again, with the hoist and dropping an engine if you drop the engine without a hoist one day, then when your ready to hire a hoist later you either have it for twice as long or half as much because you only need it for one thing.

 

Blah blah blah sleep well mate.

[Daxed 7]

Nate, get to bed, stop messing around on car forums all night.

 

Jim, the belt on the engine that I am going to be putting IN was changed 18 months and 2000 miles ago. That wasn't how long the belt lasted. Fingers crossed for your leak repairs, if they didn't work you're going to be needing speedos to drive to work and back in this weather.

 

Rob, thanks for the offer.

[Tidy_Andy 0]

if you want an engine crane and an extra pair of hands for an hour or so today or over the weekend then give me a shout. Im having a sicky from work today an i ve nothing to do to my pug have PM'd you my number

[Daxed 7]

Andy, many thanks for the offer - am working at home today so doubt i will get the chance to have a play with the car.