Engine Management Recommendations

[Guest davetibbs]

Now I've decided to go 16v with my 8v turbo engine I need to look at management - what do people reckon?

 

People have told me not to bother with the Megasquirt, which is perfectly fair enough. However the VEMS system seems to be rated by www.205turbo.nl and also sold by DP Engineering - but as far as I can make out it is basically a Megasquirt with a few more features.

 

Anyone had/heard any experience with this system?

 

If not, what other systems come recommended? Lots of custom turbo applications (especially turbo'd 106s etc) seem to use the MF2 ECU but this does look a bit toss to me, a load of variable resistors mounted on the board doesn't suggest accurate fueling to me!

 

So, what else? What cost am I looking at to get it mapped? Is it something I can do myself to get it driving then get it to someone to fine-tune it?

 

I am tempted towards the VEMS because I'm a dab hand at electronics and like that kind of stuff!

Edited December 22, 2006 by davetibbs

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Find a good rolling road near you and use what they like to map, There's so many to chose from and allot of feature's I doubt you use, A good map sensor is a must

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

VEMS appears to be a bit more advanced than MegaSquirt (on par with

the expensive ECU's apparently, while still a lot cheaper) but it's downside

is that it doesn't come with proper docs and is a bit complicated apparently.

 

after the recent VEMS WBO2 group buy, i may contact them about discounts

on the ECU too...

[jochem 0]

The Vems on 205turbo.nl does work, but its loaded with bugs.

The benefit of megasquirt is the large community that shares info.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

VEMS and MS are two different animals alltogether. VEMS should not be considered as "MS plus" or something. The only thing they share is MegaTune, the programming tool.

VEMS has a faster CPU, more loadsites and offers self learing (just like KMS). In my opinion VEMS is more suited for turbo application because of the high resolution and CPU speed. I think Gerben at 205turbo.nl uses VEMS 3.0 while VEMS 3.3 is the current release.

Downside of VEMS vs KMS is that the documentation is not very good and I can't find any users fora, just the userlist in the Wiki.

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

hava a look @ sdsefi.com

[rich_w 0]

VEMS and MS are two different animals alltogether. VEMS should not be considered as "MS plus" or something. The only thing they share is MegaTune, the programming tool.

VEMS has a faster CPU, more loadsites and offers self learing (just like KMS). In my opinion VEMS is more suited for turbo application because of the high resolution and CPU speed. I think Gerben at 205turbo.nl uses VEMS 3.0 while VEMS 3.3 is the current release.

Downside of VEMS vs KMS is that the documentation is not very good and I can't find any users fora, just the userlist in the Wiki.

 

I can't add much more but when I was reading around on the VEMS wiki it does looks the better solution - have a good read, lots of info.

 

I have one myself and havent got it running (yet).

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

At this moment in time the VEMS seems less cluttered and offers loads of functionality as standard, whereas the MS looks like the extra functionality was added later on (separate circuitboards, loose wires etc).

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Dave, Have you thought about changing the MAP sensor on your existing Motronic 3.2? I believe you can solder in a Motorola one and map it much further with more boost as the existing onboard one is limited to 1 bar / 14 psi before it goes into limp home.

 

Alternatively why not look at chucking a Cosworth ECU on it as everyone and their dog map those!!

 

Haltech is another name that is very popular over in the rest of Europe

[Guest davetibbs]

Thanks henry - I've decided to go 16v so I can get a proper ETL manifold and a nice gti6 inlet I think this would mean proper mappable ECU rather than the standard Motronic. It would mean I could fit a proper turbo as well. It's going to be an interesting conversion!

Edited December 25, 2006 by davetibbs

[pdd144c 0]

I would use an Emerald ECU, just for the fact that I could then get Dave Walker to map it for me... Their new ECU is being released at the Autosport show I think, I have one on order for my own car.

[16v205 9]

Last time I had my car mapped there (July this year) he mentioned about a software update for there ecu's incorporating 3 switchable maps and traction control and a few other bits.

 

Not heard anything since though

 

Rich

[pdd144c 0]

Yeah from what Dave told me last time we spoke that is what the 'new' ECU has.

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

the details should be revealed at/after the Autosport show, so hold on .

[TEKNOPUG 3]

It's called K3

 

I have a brochure detailing all the features.

[Sam 4]

Alternatively why not look at chucking a Cosworth ECU on it as everyone and their dog map those!

 

Thats another option I am considering, they seem to work out pretty well! Used on the Ferrari F40 too.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Thats another option I am considering, they seem to work out pretty well! Used on the Ferrari F40 too.

 

 

Cosworth managemet is f***ing archaeic..... by the time youve bought a loom, ECU and f***ed about with it getting it to work with its silly phase sensor and christ knows what else you would be better off buying modern FULLY MAPABLE management.

 

Miles has the right idea, find a mapper first and ask him what he would like to use.

 

Its threads like this that really show the people who know nothing compared to those that do.

 

Maxi

[pdd144c 0]

A decent mapper will be able to work with any system Adam. It's only a simple bit of software. Whether or not they choose to is another matter.

[smckeown 1]

A decent mapper will be able to work with any system Adam. It's only a simple bit of software. Whether or not they choose to is another matter.

 

I agree; Steve Greenald is a good example. He maps all the top systems (and some others). but even though he prefers DTA, he has good things to say about omex and emerald etc, mainly because they are very similar.

Edited January 1, 2007 by smckeown

[Sam 4]

No need to swear about it It's another solution that could be made to work and from what I've read can be used pretty well. If it was so crap why do so many people stick with it?

 

Sean, is that the s60 pro? What do they go for? any ideas?

Edited January 1, 2007 by Sam

[Dream Weaver 2]

The Emerald K3 brochure is in PPC this month - looks really good, and the in dash switchable maps are nice

[Malachy 0]

The Emerald K3 brochure is in PPC this month - looks really good, and the in dash switchable maps are nice

ms has this option anyway

 

im not so sure on this switchable map thing its kinda a pointless add on, you can map sites so that cruising area of the map is economical and the power range of the map produces max power why would you need to switch?

 

the only reasons would be for different fuel, which in realirty most of us would never use or nitrous which again most of us would not use and then many systems megasquirt included auto switch maps when nitrous is engaged.

the add on seems a bit of a fad to me.its marketed along the lines of "being able to switch to a map with a lower rev limit for when you lend the car out" oook but why would i lend my car out to someone i dont trust driving it anyway?

 

the code i do like however is speed related boost control so you can limit boost in 1st gear this too is currently being developed for ms with the ms2+extra code.

 

ms2 can auto learn much like kms aswell it has a new feauture called Automatic mixture control, this allows you to set an afr table drive the car about and the ecu will use ego feedback to re-adjust the map (not just adjusting ego control like old ms1/ms2 code) then you have the option of setting it so it auto burns to the ecu as a permamnant saved map or so that you manually burn it and save it with a laptop plugged in.

Edited January 12, 2007 by Malachy

[pdd144c 0]

Switchable maps are a great option. On my T16 I could run a wet map, a dry map and high boost map for long straights like Snetterton. If I was to let someone drive the car there is no way I would let them out in it on full boost unless they had plenty of experience driving similar cars. So ideal to have a few maps to choose from.

 

Not sure why anyone would want auto learn though, why not just get it mapped correctly?! It can only do the fueling anyway.

[Doof 11]

Anyone know anything on Ultra Megasquirt, been waiting years for it to arrive

[Malachy 0]

Anyone know anything on Ultra Megasquirt, been waiting years for it to arrive

there a few new megasquit projects on the go.

 

Microsquirt which is a premade ecu base don ms2, this come supplied in a extruded alu weatherproof case with 2 coil drivers (great for 4 cyl wasted spark) and is about the size of a cigerette pack.

 

http://www.microsquirt.info/

 

and at the moment MS3 is in the planning stage this will be utalizing a new cpu much better than the ms2 cpu which although people on here are claiming is slow is actually faster than anything else on the market bar some silly expensive ecu's and has a much higher resolution too.

i guess this claims are based on the ms1 cpu which can struggle running large injectors on small engines (hi boosted engines for example) although new code has been written (HR High resolution) to solve this and give an injection resolution similar to MS2 so you can tune in idle easier etc.

 

 

i think what was Ultrasquirt has turned into MS3 and a few things have been put on hold such as built in WB02 just because that field is moving very fast at the moment and it would be silly to include old tech in a new ecu

Edited January 13, 2007 by Malachy