Overfueling -> Bore Wash -> Blow By -> Crankcase Pressurisati

[Sandy 189]

It's not always the case, but usually the fuel duration curve largely reflects the torque curve.

[smckeown 1]

It's not always the case, but usually the fuel duration curve largely reflects the torque curve.

here's the torque comparison between the two. I know it's dodgy comparing figures from 2 different rollers, but it is the case the torque is noticably down on the mikeanics map and hotter cam

 

 

So if both these maps had identical fuel maps, would this case the car to now run significantly rich ? I would have thought so thinking about it now

 

Sean

[Sandy 189]

Do you have the maps?

[smckeown 1]

Mikeanics Map:

4900343 cam

30mm trumpets

http://www.track-monkey.co.uk/KMS/mikeanics.m03

 

Original Steve Greenald map:

4900340 cam

90mm trumpets

http://www.track-monkey.co.uk/KMS/KMS/SeanMk_from_SteveG.m03

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Silly question, but what Pistons are liner's are you using

[smckeown 1]

Silly question, but what Pistons are liner's are you using

 

New karl schmidt 1.6 pistons and used honed OE liners

[Sandy 189]

Can't get the second map Sean?

[smckeown 1]

Can't get the second map Sean?

 

 

ah wrong URL:

 

 

 

Mikeanics Map:

4900343 cam

30mm trumpets

http://www.track-monkey.co.uk/KMS/mikeanics.m03

 

Original Steve Greenald map:

4900340 cam

90mm trumpets

http://www.track-monkey.co.uk/KMS/SeanMk_from_SteveG.m03

[Sandy 189]

Looking at the Mikeanics map, Load site 14 makes sense, but 13 and 15 don't, maybe it was sitting on load site 14 at full throttle. The mid range/part throttle fuelling appears to be as much as full throttle for alot of the sites, which would certainly make for rich running there. Don't take this as criticism, the beauty of fully mappable fuelling and ignition is that you can overcome odd spots by playing with the values.

 

Downloaded but can't read the Grenauld map.

[smckeown 1]

The mid range/part throttle fuelling appears to be as much as full throttle for alot of the sites, which would certainly make for rich running there.

 

Interesting. As I said thye fuel map was 100% the same for greenald and mikeanics. As we know it was making awesome torque at greenald's place, but not mikeanics...

 

Looking at the Mikeanics map, Load site 14 makes sense, but 13 and 15 don't, maybe it was sitting on load site 14 at full throttle.

 

It defo makes load site 15 at full throttle as i've tried it myself, plus you'd have to be a village idiot mapper not to spot that problem or rectify..

 

 

Downloaded but can't read the Grenauld map.

 

 

here's an alternative greenald map

 

thanks for looking...

[Mattsav 1]

Sort out the breathers as that wont be helping anything.

Then fit a wideband and let the ecu do its stuff - that the beauty of wideband control.

 

The ECU hasn't been altering the map as there are no corrections present.

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

Sean,

 

Trying to understand the history of your engine, when I sit back and think one thing comes to mind the amount of people who have had dealings with your engine in a very short period of time :-

 

1. Dave Baker built the lump.

2. GSR initially ran in your engine.

3. Steve Greenald maps the engine.

4. Matt from QEP to fit new spring and new cam.

5. Mike @ Mikeanics to remap engine.

 

Looking at the number who knows who to blame for all your issues?

 

Now there will be a 6th person Des Developments to sort out the above problems. Lets hope it's sorted for once and for all or will there be a 7th person to remap?

[Sandy 189]

Still can download it ok, but it comes up with an error when I try to open it.

[smckeown 1]

Still can download it ok, but it comes up with an error when I try to open it.

 

ah it always does that when reading a map using a higher software version than the map is saved from. It still imports all the values fine...it at least does when importing using a higher version of the software than it was saved from

Edited December 10, 2006 by smckeown

[Sandy 189]

Ah right, could you send me a screen save of the fuel table?

[smckeown 1]

Sean,

 

Trying to understand the history of your engine, when I sit back and think one thing comes to mind the amount of people who have had dealings with your engine in a very short period of time :-

 

1. Dave Baker built the lump.

2. GSR initially ran in your engine.

3. Steve Greenald maps the engine.

4. Matt from QEP to fit new spring and new cam.

5. Mike @ Mikeanics to remap engine.

 

Looking at the number who knows who to blame for all your issues?

 

Now there will be a 6th person Des Developments to sort out the above problems. Lets hope it's sorted for once and for all or will there be a 7th person to remap?

 

1 Dave doesnt install engines or buld race prepped cars

3 Steve is one of the best mappers in the country I believe

4 It broke down at Matt's so pretty obvious he might as wel fit it, or do you think oi should have removed the lump and sent it to the builder who by that time wouldnt even accept my emails ?

5 Steve G could not fit me in and i was deperate not to cancel another track day, so mikeanics could fit me in the day before anglesey

 

I am trying to blame no one, i'm just interested in what people think as to why things have happened ? Sopmeone (including myserlf) might actually learn something and stop this from hapenning again

 

Des was due to perform other work anyway such as install cam (QEP cant fit me in) and new exhaust (we are experimenting with a new one up there).

 

Sound like i'm not being rational ?

[welshpug 1,622]

all sounds pretty rational to me

 

has the head come off yet? hopefully the rich running hasn't caused to much damage but from your compression test results theres only one suspect cylinder.

 

Just out of interest what makes the new cam "wider" ?

more overlap, more lift or a combination of both?

I'm guessing either of the two would mean more air getting in but the resonant frequencies would have changed meaning a new map needed.

[smckeown 1]

all sounds pretty rational to me

 

has the head come off yet? hopefully the rich running hasn't caused to much damage but from your compression test results theres only one suspect cylinder.

 

Just out of interest what makes the new cam "wider" ?

more overlap, more lift or a combination of both?

I'm guessing either of the two would mean more air getting in but the resonant frequencies would have changed meaning a new map needed.

 

came has more lift and duration

 

no, car going up to des a week weds to perform all the relevant tests. I'll test injectors before it goes

 

you'll always need a new map, the ignition side has changed, but fieling the same.

 

from my perspective the new torque graph is significatly lower, indicating less air getting in the cylinder, and as fueling map the same it WILL (IMO) be running rich. Althjought as sandy says mikeanics may have been happy with it, i'll phone him next week. Actually thinking about it he does have a lambda for mapping as i remember him installing him. So how it wasnt showing rich during mapping i'll never know.

[saveloy 8]

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but have you checked the injectors for spray pattern?

It is possible to have an equal flow from all four and still have one or more not atomising properly. Hence, a possible bore washing situation.

[smckeown 1]

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but have you checked the injectors for spray pattern?

It is possible to have an equal flow from all four and still have one or more not atomising properly. Hence, a possible bore washing situation.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I had the injectors profesionally reconditioned and they check for spray pattern. I'm wondering if the vauxhall cream's have a pattern that is not so good for 8vs ? I could go with the 8v/mi16 injector next time.

 

Anyway, as soon as I get the injector o ring replaced, i'll test the injectors for volume and spray. As per here i'm ready to test. The KMS ECU allows you to test the injectors, as per here:

 

The option enables the injector output to be tested. A pulsating test lasts 1 minute, during which the injectors are activated for periods of 10 milliseconds, alternating with rest periods of 10 milliseconds.

During a continuous test the injectors are continuously active for 1 minute

 

[saveloy 8]

If the Vauxhall injectors are from a 16 valve engine, then it is quite possible they are not good for your engine.

Do you know if the have a split spray? If so, the spray may be aiming at your inlet walls, rather than atomising properly down the inlet tracts.

What are the spark plugs saying?

[smckeown 1]

If the Vauxhall injectors are from a 16 valve engine, then it is quite possible they are not good for your engine.

Do you know if the have a split spray? If so, the spray may be aiming at your inlet walls, rather than atomising properly down the inlet tracts.

What are the spark plugs saying?

 

But what about the pug injectors, used on 8 and 16v engines ? Also as they are used in TBs wouldn't it make less difference as to the spray pattern vs. being injected closer to the inlet ?

 

Maybe I should go back to the pug injectors...

 

Plugs are blacker than a black thing

[saveloy 8]

Early Mi16 injectors were similar to the 8 valves. But the later types were a split spray design, more suited to the 16 valve. Since then16 valve engine had a split inlet, these injectors make more sense, since they are more accurate at spraying and atomising down the individual inlet tracts.

Your plugs tell the full story really. They are richer than a Russian football club owner.

You need a set of injectors intended for an 8 valve. The correct flow and good atomisation. I use a set of Rover 220 turbo injectors and have no issues.

[Sandy 189]

Given how far up the inlet tract the injectors are mounted, the spray pattern of the Vauxhall cream injectors is academic IMO, also it's a cone fan spray pattern and not a 16v split on the ones I've had. I very much doubt the spray pattern is the issue.

[smckeown 1]

Early Mi16 injectors were similar to the 8 valves. But the later types were a split spray design, more suited to the 16 valve. Since then16 valve engine had a split inlet, these injectors make more sense, since they are more accurate at spraying and atomising down the individual inlet tracts.

Your plugs tell the full story really. They are richer than a Russian football club owner.

You need a set of injectors intended for an 8 valve. The correct flow and good atomisation. I use a set of Rover 220 turbo injectors and have no issues.

 

thanks for the feedback. I can see the benefit od a split pattern spray when you are injecting directly into the inlet, but I can't see the difference it would make injecting into a throttle body.

 

Anyone care to explain ?

 

I'll do some research regarding the high powered 8vs on here..