Up Rated Original Speakers...or Stealth Shelf?

[Faz85 0]

Hello Everybody,

 

Im considering improving the audio in my GTi, and am looking either to just uprate the original speakers, and keep a nice mint parcel shelf in the rear, or get a set of 6X9's and fit them to a stealth shelf in the rear...

 

any opinions on those options?? obviously the 6X9's in a stealth shelf would sound better, but i think im right in saying these shelves can be quite heavy, since they are basically just parcel shelves with a big lump of MDF or something on the underside to mount the speakers in.

 

Im not really bothered about subs or amps, i just want some clarity from my speakers (for the VERY odd occasions when i would rather listen to my music than that gorgeous exhaust note!! ) would i be able to achieve this with just uprated speakers in the original housings? if so, does anyone know what the aperture size is?

 

Many Thanks In Advance

 

Faraz

[DaveW 6]

id get a steath shelf as i like the little bit extra bass from the 6x9's the normal speakers are too small really.

[Edp 67 3 Cars]

I made up my own using the original shelf and some good quality acoustic carpet. The stealth shelfs are heavier and if your handy with a jigsaw and some glue you can make your own for at least a quarter of the price.

 

You can then keep your cables nice and tidy behind the carpet too and like I did clip them in place.

 

Hope that helps

 

Ed

[Faz85 0]

I made up my own using the original shelf and some good quality acoustic carpet. The stealth shelfs are heavier and if your handy with a jigsaw and some glue you can make your own for at least a quarter of the price.

 

You can then keep your cables nice and tidy behind the carpet too and like I did clip them in place.

 

Hope that helps

 

Ed

 

Cheers for that Ed, i might give that a go...do you know of a decent place where i can find some acoustic carpet??

 

Faraz

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Faraz,

 

Most decent sized towns etc have an ICE place - do a YELL.COM search or similar. That's where you'll get for sure your acoustic carpet, which is really a multi-directional stretchy carpet, and it comes in loads of colours too, as well as your replacement speakers. More on that in a mo.

 

For speakers, quite a lot of motor factor shops (often privately run) do a reasonable range of mainly budget range car audio equipment. In fact the modern day Halfrauds will almost certainly have the carpet AND the car audio gear. NO, I do not work for Halfords!

 

As for speaker choice and sound, always buy the best you can afford. Check if they have ex display or end of line speakers first - these can save you a packet. As you don't want an amp, then I agree with the recommendation of speakers mounted on a firm shelf in rear - hence heavy. They don't have to be 6x9s though, as there are a few 6.5inch, 8inch & even 10x7inch co or tri axial speakers that will, on a decently thick and carpeted shelf give you quite suprisingly punchy bass.

 

If you really don't fancy cutting an 18mm MDF shape patterned from your original parcel shelf, then companies like auto acoustics (if I remember correctly) make them spot on for most types of hatchback car - almost for certain the 205 - but look to spend £50+. However, it will be trimmed to perfect shape, carpeted, will probably have the hangers and hinge joints too. You can save this money if you have half a day, go buy the carpet, get a really good staple gun (& staples), a large tin of black spray paint (to spray the wood before you carpet it, a drill for speaker screw holes (and to start the jigsaw off), the jigsaw itself with decent blade and a suitable size of MDF. With the MDF, go to B&Q or Homebase where they have a woodcutting facility (with your parcel shelf under your little arm) and instead of buying a huge sheet of 18mm MDF outright, ask if they have some offcuts behind the counter. They'll even cut down a larger offcut or piece to roughly the same size so you just have to do shaping, costing probably less than a fiver!

 

For the rear - use the speaker template supplied, but remember to position the speakers evenly and you are cutting a hole NOT to mount the speaker in BUT for the speaker to 'fire' through, because you'll be screwing up from the back of the speaker into the MDF from underneath the shelf - hence stealth, unseen speakers. But everyone knows they're there anyway, so it's for looks but more importantly sound really..DOH! Channel the wires for the speakers out to one corner near the hinge for neatness and as recommended you can cover the bottom of the shelf with carpet (possibly the same peice too) to hide them if you wish. Now you can see why £50 or so saves you a lot of messing. You should be able to get a decent pair for the rear FROM £35 quid.

 

As for the fronts, for simplicity just buy 5.25 inch coaxials stating which car they're for and they should just drop straight in. I say this because the tweeter element of the speaker if it protrudes too far out will foul with the original grill trim. Again similar FROM spend should ensure decent enough speakers.

 

Ensure ALL speakers are wired up to your head unit (or any future amp upgrade for that matter) positive amp out to positive speaker in and so on - there'll be less bass if you don't.

 

I'd be interested to hear what you buy and decide to do. Best of luck. My 205Mi16 has just had what I had lying around thrown in (safely of course): 100W handling 5.25 coaxials in standard door mounts. Importantly their amp channels (2 of a 4 channel Philips' old DAP600 4x88W RMS) are 80hz high pass, which means - in that less than ideal mounting - they handle loads of power (yes seriously!) and don't have to produce low bass notes. 6x9's on MDF top shelf of bass box in rear run off other 2 DAP 600 channels. A second DAP 600 is fitted but currently reserved for a passenger footwell mini sub box for upfront bass (very difficult to achieve by the way), which means I'll still have thump whenever I lift out the large, removal bass box which has its own dedicated Kenwood 1 x 200W RMS amp powering twin 15inch Earthquake subs in a clever, ported enclosure.

 

I said the last bit NOT to bragg or be sad, but just to qualify (I hope) my advice to you about your install. PM me if you have any burning questions or post on here. Glad to help.

 

Regards

 

Dr S

Edited September 25, 2006 by DrSarty

[brianthemagical 1]

ever seen a top quality home install, or basic surround sound system? notice how the big speakes are at the front, even if there the same distance away? theres no comparison between fornt and rear speakers, i went throught the stage of having i set of 6x9's hooked up to an amp, the other set off the head unit (in a non-GTi 205 i might add, don't want hate mail). it was just loud, there was very little clarity to the treble. i've now got focal pollyglass 2-way co-ax's (bout £200) in the origional location with modded grill's. they are worth every penny and it's possible to tell wich side of the car they are biased to it's that good. in my opinion get front speakers in origional locations from a good online store and if you want more base get a cheap 10" package deal online and jobs a good'n. i've got 10" sub, it is running on 600watts rms (proven), it's just turned down to a sutible level. if you've never wired an amp before make sure you some advice of the forum, my power cable is bigger than the alternator cable, not pretty if it was done wrong. hope that helps, it might offset the rant.

[Rom 0]

Personally, i always run decent front components. With a set of nice 3 or 4 way 6x9s. Along with a 10 or 12" sub.

In my 205 i have the comps, 4 way 6x9s and a 10". 4 way 6x9s play very little bass, even when i havent turned almost all of it off via crossovers. Without the sub its very tinny, but all together is a very balanced setup, very clear with no distortion even cranked right up.

 

A stealth shelf is very nice if its within your price range, they look completly stock, come in many colours,are very sturdy. Think mine is an Auto Acoustics, like DrS said. Cost about £90 iirc.

I really wouldnt bother upgrading the standard rear speakers. Please dont butcher the standard shelf for the 6x9s Either diy one or a stealth shelf.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Decent components. Sub and amp in the boot with standard shelf.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You've had some good advice here Faz. Decent sub-bass provided by a sub and a box will ALWAYS outperform a system without one, so if you can stretch your funds and either do the install yourself or get someone competent to do it for you the difference will be amazing.

 

Other advice was right too, such as don't use/butcher the standard shelf, and that components (that's a seperate mid bass speaker from the tweeter) for upfront door use will improve treble clarity and stereo imaging,but these will cost more usually. One recommendation simply isn't true, although I can see why they've said it. Rear coaxial speakers such as 6x9s (whether they're 2-3 or 4 way) can and do produce as I said fairly punchy base, however they do need decent power, proper mounting, will not play very low bass and will never compete with a sub/box/amp combination. Sorry RKKRom but 'no bass' is a little unfair - they do and based on Faz's simple initial query would do exactly what he wanted. The rear pillar speaker locations however (for bass anyway) would be complete Vanessa Phelps! [RKK - something ain't right if your 4 ways aren't performing. Have you checked phase, or perhaps your crossover dial is innacurate?]

 

Your choice of advice here means you can make a good decision, perhaps starting off by setting a budget and buying the best you can afford. My advice followed exactly what you said you wanted, i.e. no complications or boot space taken up by extra amps, subs or boxes, as it seems you want to keep it simple.

 

Whichever route you choice there's always help at hand here.

Edited September 26, 2006 by DrSarty

[Faz85 0]

Many Thanks for all the replies guys, and Thanks Dr.S for providing such a comprehensive guide! Its everything i needed to know!

 

I think im more in favour of leaving the boot empty, so perhaps some decent shelf speakers and front speakers would be a good place to start...

 

I think i'll splash out on an Auto Acoustics stealth shelf (its payday on friday, and I dont have 100% faith in my DIY abilities!!) and i'll opt for some 6X9's...I have a friend who has offered me some Infinity 6X9's which are only a few months old, for £20. Any opinions on Infinity? I hav'nt bought speakers for a while, but i remember them having quite a good name.

 

I'll also go for some 5.25inch coaxials for the front as advised, which should hopefully make for a pretty good basic install. I guess It will also give me the option to improve the install in the future also.

 

Regards

 

Faraz

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Yes Faraz, can't really go wrong with Infinity, they just don't make sh%te. As you say you're buying from a friend then if they simply don't work because they've been fried then you'll be OK - if he's a friend he shouldn't be selling you anything that doesn't work. So there's a big saving, meaning VERY IMPORTANTLY you can spend more cash on the front end which is THE most important part of the system. Spend here wisely anticipating a future upgrade, so aim for a good brand with maybe 100-150W+ peak rated handling. That'll more than adequate for your future plans.

 

Check with auto acoustics that the shelf has all hinge brackets and lift tie attachments to make it fit straight in too.

 

Well done that man.

 

Dr S

[Rom 0]

Dr S

 

I meant to refer to 4 way 6x9s,mine dont play hardly any bass. Even with crossovers off! Im sure its nothing ot do with my install, or any other piece of equip in the car. As i swapped them out for my mates 2 or 3 ways. Which as you say, are quite capable of providing bass decent bass.

Mine are really old, but they provide very clear sound,so until they need it, they will stay. As any bass they can play is really irrelevant to me. I figured it was perhaps a trait of 4 ways,but there not that common, so i dont know anyone with them.

 

Back to OP...Halfrauds is a good place to start, you can listen to many speakers, running off headunits and amps. Then go order them on the net for $$ savings

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

RK, I didn't mean to sound harsh, I feel it must be your 4 ways. But if it doesn't bother you then that's good. I have 4 way panasonic 6x9s as rear fill playing 50Hz up and they really thump. In fact I tested them with the xover switched off -and yes I do have an advantage as they are individually boxed with 75w RMS up 'em-but they definately did the bass end. And for only £32 brand new!

 

It still strikes me as strange that you say your 4 ways aren't very bassy. As all coaxials receive the signal you send them straight to the woofer element, then the mid(x1 or 2) plus tweeter (x1 or 2) are just piggy backed off that input with only a capacitor to limit the low frequency notes they can't 'play' (for protection if you like). So if your speaker level input is full range, i.e. no HP filter cutting off the low end music frequencies (hz), then the woofer will try to play it all, even the high stuff. Most 6x9 speakers I would expect in car to make a noticable noise all the way down to 40hz, whereas at 100hz, which is typically the centre frequency of a kick drum they should gives bags of bang!

 

As I said strange. I find it unlikely, unless they're totally pants that your 4 ways won't do the same unless, they're wired out of phase (this effects bass big style), you are feeding them not a full range signal all the way down or you're expecting too much of them.

 

Sorry Faz, just intrigued by RK's comment because it must have bugged him to some degree for him to have mentioned it. After all, I am a doctor.

[Rom 0]

This thread has been hijacked by leet ninjas

 

There old skool sonys circa £80 years ago. My front components can drop lower than them But, like i said, doesnt matter as there cut off high up anyway since im running a sub. It is bizare though, like you say.

I didnt think you were boing harsh Im sure they SHOULD be able to play bass.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Cool

 

Dr S

 

P.S. What Ninjas?

[Paintguy 0]

Mounting is at least as important, if not more so, than the actual speaker itself. Budget speakers mounted well, can give better results than high-end ones mounted poorly.

 

This means a solid mounting, and the rear of the speaker sealed as much as practically possible from the front. Simply sticking large speakers in a shelf just wont cut it. As the cone moves outwards (upwards) the shelf will simply move in the opposite direction (downwards) cancelling out much of the bass [/simplified] Also, if air can leak around the sides of the shelf, it'll have a similar effect.

 

The best way to acheive this (if you really must have shelf mounted speakers) is to make the whole of the boot into one large sealed enclosure or box. This is often impractical, so a very solid shelf, 2 or 3 layers of 18mm MDF, bolted to strong side mounts (not the flimsy original ones) will help. As will trying to seal the boot off as best you can. Another board to seal off the back seats, and plenty of foam strip around the edges of the 'shelf' will help prevent bass destroying air leakage.

 

If you want my opinion, use a decent sized speaker upfront (6" is good, larger if you can) and use a small sub in the boot for the sub bass frequencies that these can't produce. Forget the rear speakers, a car as small as a 205 really doesn't need them.

 

P.S. DrS - I've seen a few people lately doing small footwell mounted sub enclosures, and they are really happy with the results. It'd be nice to hear how you progress with this idea

Edited September 26, 2006 by Paintguy

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

P.S. DrS - I've seen a few people lately doing small footwell mounted sub enclosures, and they are really happy with the results. It'd be nice to hear how you progress with this idea

 

Will do PG. An old friend of mine, dunno if he still trades as Mobile Muscle, a chap called Alan Burton from Hoddesdon back then has been involved with PA systems and then specifically car audio loud speaker enclosures for longer than I've been alive (35years). If you're still around Alan Hiya..and if anyone knows him please get me some contact details.

 

I haven't chatted to him for over 10 years but I learned a lot from him - what he didn't know about 2nd order (sealed), 4th order (ported) and bandpass enclosures (can be 4 orders and up) simply didn't need to be known. He kitted out a 5 series Beemer with a wedge shape enclosure in front of the pass. seat, which meant the passenger's calves just rested on its front slope. That one was a ported enclosure with a single infinity 6" sub, and because the box was about 1.25 cu ft net it meant that the enclosure was optimally flat, playing nice and deep and with loads of control (also due to good (read: quality not necessarily power, although I do mean 150rms minimum) amp on it.

 

I've also seen a Renault 5 GT Turbo with twin 8's actually mounted in MDF & glassfibred enclosures the engine side of the scuttle panel. Both of these have immeasurable results on bringing meaty bass up to the front. Many will argue rightly that bass is omni directional, i.e difficult to pinpoint, but use your common sense and you'll see that as much upfront bass as possible, near to the main speakers is more inline with the original performance. You don't go to a concert and have the bassist and the kick drum from the drum kit in row Z behind you do you?? Plus your front speakers can concentrate on music and handle more power = louder/more efficient system.

 

I'm choosing to do this for two reasons. One I'm mainly in the 205 on my own, but my oppo wouldn't care anyway, and secondly for times/events when I need better performance I can remove the main sub enclosure, amp and all (which must weigh with MDF, amp and 2 x 15" earthquake subs around 35kg) by unplugging 2 connectors...easy peasy. And thirdly (yeah I know), I've always wanted to try it. If I can get them, Boston Acoustics, a really high quality speaker manufacturer do a wicked 5 inch sub, so I could either use 2 or even 3 of those OR simply plop for dual voice coil 8" that'll handle around 400W RMS. Now that'll really do it. I will keep you posted.

 

Dr (slightly eccentric) S

Edited September 26, 2006 by DrSarty

[Paintguy 0]

I didn't know Boston Acoustics did a 5" sub, but I've heard plenty of good things about the Focal ones (5WS iirc)

 

Can't agree more on your up-front bass point though, hence me running my sub as low as possible (around 50Hz) so it doesn't drag the soundstage back too far.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I didn't know Boston Acoustics did a 5" sub, but I've heard plenty of good things about the Focal ones (5WS iirc)

 

Yep, I've been a div. You're quite right, Focal, not Boston. Sorry, both classy makes, got mixed up.