8v Rebuild Quote

[driversdomainuk 8]

Hi

 

Just had a quote from DES Developments for my 8V rebuild - looks very comprehensive and I know they have had some very good reports - but what do you make of this quote?

 

I am possibly thinking it is worth going down the Mi16 route (rebuilt) as they quote me £3100 for that and with my carbs will give a realistic 175bhp.

 

views please...

 

thanks

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DES developments

 

 

 

DES Developments LLP Date 06/09/2006

Units 2-3 Crown Works, Quotation Reference Q020706

138 Wednesbury Road,

Walsall, Description

West Midlands. Parts requested from customer

WS1 4JJ

 

Quotation

 

Customer : Rob Morgan Reg. No.

Make Peugeot

Model 205

cc 1.9 GTI

VIN

Mileage

 

Description Amount

 

1.9 Mi16 Bottom End £180.00

ARP Rod Bolts £92.00

Main Bearing Shells £37.00

Big End Bearing Shells £42.00

Thrust Bearings £5.20

Piston Rings £96.00

Front Crank End Seal £3.40

Rear Crank End Seal £8.30

Crank Grind £40.00

Fully Balance Bottom End £220.00

DES Motorsport Baffled Sump £140.00

Hone Liners £40.00

Bottom End Assembly £540.00

Calculate Compression Ratio £45.00

Skim Head to 11.5:1 £40.00

Machine Piston Crowns for Valve Clearnace £60.00

Head Gasket £20.00

Head Bolts £24.00

Cam Belt £14.00

Cam End Seal £2.50

Cam Belt Tensioner £26.00

Water Pump £32.00

Catcams 288 duration Cam £169.57

Catcams Double Valve Spring Kit £132.72

Re-Shim Valve Clearances £65.00

Final Engine Assembly £540.00

Service Carbs £165.00

 

Sub Total £2,779.69

VAT £486.45

Total £3,266.14

[petert 554]

some things are in pounds what I pay in dollars!

[bales 1]

Is that 175bhp expected from the 8v engine?

 

It seems pretty comprehensive but to get that much power out of an 8v isn't the head the vital part, and the head isn't mentioned in the list. Just a skim and a cam seem to be the main actual tuning parts. I would have thought to get 175bhp out of an 8v you would need a race head almost or at least one that has been severly modified.

 

Unless you already have a good head and its just not mentioned.

 

Alex

 

Re-reading you post I think you mean that a rebuilt mi16 with your carbs will be 175bhp - that explains it then

 

Does seem quite a lot of money to get maybe 140-150bhp though

Edited September 6, 2006 by bales

[Jonmurgie 2]

I feel the following stand out as expensive:

 

Fully Balance Bottom End £220.00

Bottom End Assembly £540.00

Final Engine Assembly £540.00

Calculate Compression Ratio £45.00 (I mean WTF?!!)

 

Bottom end balance should be far less, and seems to me your paying TWICE for the engine to be built?! And charging you for working out the comp ratio... that's just cheeky!

 

I'd send that quote to QEP and see what he can do IMO

[mfield 20]

Bottom End Assembly £540.00

Final Engine Assembly £540.00

 

Sub Total £1080

VAT £189

Total £1269

 

Seems a tad high ?

 

Edit: beaten to it

Edited September 6, 2006 by mfield

[driversdomainuk 8]

I think their £3100 quote for a fully fitted Mi engine which has been reconed and had my carbs fitted would be a better option.

[notamondayfan 44]

£3100 !! imagine how many used 8v you could buy for that much! simply rag the hell outa an 8v till it blows, then buy another!

[mbayley77 0]

£3100 !! imagine how many used 8v you could buy for that much! simply rag the hell outa an 8v till it blows, then buy another!

 

He has a point when you can get engines on ebay for around the 25 quid mark!

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Surely an XU10 baffled sump is going to be cheaper than fabricating one...

[Butler 0]

Personally I'd buy throttle bodies and an ecu and stick them on a standard Mi engine and upgrade it over time. cams, dry sump etc etc

 

Boddies can be used again and again and the ecu can be remapped.

 

3k into just an engine is not as future proof.

[SimonJ 2]

Surely the Mi16 will take you into a different class and that's to be avoided.

I'd have thought for hillclimbing you wouldn't need the baffled sump (though possibly for sprints) and Puma in a very recent thread said you don't need the ARP bolts so there's £232 + vat saved. Look at the Skip Brown catalogue (page or two from the end - it's on smckeown's site) and they quote a rebuild from £500 for the whole engine.

Starts to head towards £2000, a not unreasonable figure.

Edited September 6, 2006 by SimonJ

[smckeown 1]

Have you had a telephone/in person conversation with them over your objective build requirements ? I think there is a mismatch between what your objectives are and the quote provided.

[Sandy 189]

Sounds fair enough to me, building an engine well is very time consuming.

[Butler 0]

Surely the Mi16 will take you into a different class and that's to be avoided.

 

same concept would apply to an 8v i am sure.

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Have a go putting it together yourself and you've slashed the costs by 50% straight away. It's not as if you are paying for specialist head work - just off the sheld parts and their labour to screw it all together.

[smckeown 1]

Have a go putting it together yourself and you've slashed the costs by 50% straight away. It's not as if you are paying for specialist head work - just off the sheld parts and their labour to screw it all together.

 

A company as respectable as des-developments do jot just screw all the parts together, I think you're assuming professional companies offer no value on top of a DIY effort, far from the truth really. I'm all for people having a go themselves, but you can't assume it's as easy as that, there is such a thing as an optimised build that takes more time than slapping it together

[PumaRacing 1]

Hi

 

Just had a quote from DES Developments for my 8V rebuild - looks very comprehensive and I know they have had some very good reports - but what do you make of this quote?

 

Looks crazy to me as well as being largely pointless. The Mi16 bottom end won't help anything. There's nothing wrong with the 8v bottom end. I see nothing about head work in there so you're basically getting a std engine plus cam with second hand pistons and liners for £3300??? It isn't even going to put out much more power than standard. Why on earth bother?

 

Pistons don't need machining for valve clearance on an 8v engine. The valves don't go anywhere near the pistons. £220 on balancing is wasted money and twice the real cost anyway.

 

In round numbers to build an 8v properly you should be looking at about £1k to do a big valve head and cam and another £1k to rebuild the bottom end with new parts. Add on any special bits like baffled sumps, valve springs and then final assembly, cam timing etc and £2,500 should easily cover it. Only if the state of tune is going so high you need forged pistons, rods etc should you be heading anywhere near £3300.

[smckeown 1]

Whether or not the company charges VAT as well as delivery timescales and warranty and reputation also effect the engine builder choice. 17.5% is a lot of saving on a professional engine build.

[TEKNOPUG 3]

A company as respectable as des-developments do jot just screw all the parts together, I think you're assuming professional companies offer no value on top of a DIY effort, far from the truth really. I'm all for people having a go themselves, but you can't assume it's as easy as that, there is such a thing as an optimised build that takes more time than slapping it together

 

 

But is it worth 100% of the parts for an engine that even "optimised" won't be giving much more power over a standard engine?

 

For people with more money than sense me thinks.......

 

You're particular engine is a differnet case in point, where you spent a lot of time and money acquiring parts to get the maximum performance that you can. In your case it's probably money well spent getting a pro to assemble it.

[smckeown 1]

You're particular engine is a differnet case in point, where you spent a lot of time and money acquiring parts to get the maximum performance that you can. In your case it's probably money well spent getting a pro to assemble it.

 

That's why i've learned you have to know your objectives before approaching an engine builder and choosing the right one for you. Why spend a a lot on expensive parts or use a builder than optimises engines when you're after not a lot of power

 

Dave backs this up by saying things like:

 

The Mi16 bottom end won't help anything. There's nothing wrong with the 8v bottom end.

 

As someone else said, unless regs apply, to get 175 bhp the best is go for mi16 plus cam. I wonder what the price comparison of a BV 8v head with bike carbs though (although you wont have the future proof ability compared with mi16)

[Martin@PRD 0]

Love to go in to detail on this though i dont have any rivals and wnat to keep it that way.

 

Ring around the other companys and get some more qoutes.....

[Guest DesMi16]

Blimey, I seem to have kicked it off with this one and maybe it's a touch to do with a slight misunderstanding between what you're after and what I've quoted for. Sorry if there is any misunderstanding.

 

Most people that we build engines for require or request the best attention to detail. It's easy for all of you to sit there saying that it's rediculous but if it had have been a quote for a customer competing at a top level in there class then it would not be a massive amount to spend for the piece of mind that, IMO, it had been built as well as it possibly could. Had people pay more than that for stock hatch engines before.

 

As with everything on that quote. It could come out cheaper depending on circumstance. I'd rather quote a touch high on labour, have a problem free build and have the joy of telling the customer that it's actually finished off cheaper than expected. I try to avoid the general Pug tuning worlds habit of telling someone it will cost £1000 and then landing a £2000 bill on the customer due to 'unforseen problems'.

 

Jon Murgie, Have you ever sat down and spent the time to fully calculate the exact compression ratio of an engine rather than trusting book figures. Doesn't often come out identical to a useable point when aiming for a far higher ratio. Higher you push the cr, the more time you should spend checking where you're at. No use having a balanced bottom end if there's variation in cr between cylinders. Also had to do quite a lot of machining in the past to ensure piston valve clearance is maintained when raising the cr up to around 11.5-12:1. May seem unnecessary to you but necessary to me in knowing what engine you're actually building.

 

And as my final word, although i love tuned 8v's, I will agree with anyone that the cheapest way to higher power in a 205 is to buy an Mi and fit it yourself but that quote was for exactly what Rob asked for.

[pugrallye 0]

end of day if you dont like the quote, go elsewhere, I personally would rather spend a bit extra knowing that someone had put it together properly, than have a lesser quote with a hazier quote of what is involved, and if you reckon you can rebuild it for 50% less put your self on a stopwatch, and calculate yourself a labour rate!!

Edited September 6, 2006 by pugrallye

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Blimey, I seem to have kicked it off with this one and maybe it's a touch to do with a slight misunderstanding between what you're after and what I've quoted for. Sorry if there is any misunderstanding.

 

Most people that we build engines for require or request the best attention to detail. It's easy for all of you to sit there saying that it's rediculous but if it had have been a quote for a customer competing at a top level in there class then it would not be a massive amount to spend for the piece of mind that, IMO, it had been built as well as it possibly could. Had people pay more than that for stock hatch engines before.

 

As with everything on that quote. It could come out cheaper depending on circumstance. I'd rather quote a touch high on labour, have a problem free build and have the joy of telling the customer that it's actually finished off cheaper than expected. I try to avoid the general Pug tuning worlds habit of telling someone it will cost £1000 and then landing a £2000 bill on the customer due to 'unforseen problems'.

 

Jon Murgie, Have you ever sat down and spent the time to fully calculate the exact compression ratio of an engine rather than trusting book figures. Doesn't often come out identical to a useable point when aiming for a far higher ratio. Higher you push the cr, the more time you should spend checking where you're at. No use having a balanced bottom end if there's variation in cr between cylinders. Also had to do quite a lot of machining in the past to ensure piston valve clearance is maintained when raising the cr up to around 11.5-12:1. May seem unnecessary to you but necessary to me in knowing what engine you're actually building.

 

And as my final word, although i love tuned 8v's, I will agree with anyone that the cheapest way to higher power in a 205 is to buy an Mi and fit it yourself but that quote was for exactly what Rob asked for.

 

 

That's fair play if someone has asked you to build an 8v that will meet race regs and stand up to a season on track. I read the original quote as merely a road engtine rebuild.

[PumaRacing 1]

Blimey, I seem to have kicked it off with this one and maybe it's a touch to do with a slight misunderstanding between what you're after and what I've quoted for. Sorry if there is any misunderstanding.

 

The first part of any engine building job should be to establish what the customer is actually after and then advise on the best and most cost effective way of achieving it. This will usually be nothing like what the customer originally had in mind because most of them have no idea what is and is not important in an engine build. Putting a 16v bottom end which you can't even get new pistons for anymore on a standard 8v top end without anything in the quote for porting or even refurbishing the seats and valve guides would appear to be about the best way of haemorrhaging money into an engine build it's possible to imagine.

 

 

And as my final word, although i love tuned 8v's, I will agree with anyone that the cheapest way to higher power in a 205 is to buy an Mi and fit it yourself but that quote was for exactly what Rob asked for.

 

That brings us to the ethical question of whether you build what the customer wants regardless of whether you think it a sensible way of spending money or whether you walk away. Personally I won't build anything I don't think is the best, most cost effective way of achieving the optimum engine for the budget at hand. If the customer wants gold plated conrods and I don't then they don't go in. If he insists he needs them then he can find someone else to build his engine.

 

It's a very good way of staying poor and I'm sure my accountant would much prefer I just took the filthy lucre and kept my ethics to myself but as my accountant is also me he doesn't get much say in the matter.