Non-starter Motor

[Guest antgel]

Hi all,

 

I'm having occasional problems with hot starts. The starter motor doesn't even turn, and I can hear a quiet humming when I turn the key. After 30-60 minutes, it starts normally.

 

I want to find out whether it is the motor / solenoid or the connection, so I plan to keep a wire in the car to touch between the +ve battery terminal and solenoid next time the problem happens. The question is, where is it? I know it's meant to be under the inlet manifold, but will I be able to get in there normally, just to touch a wire?

 

If someone could give me idiot-proof directions to locating it without taking the manifold off, I'd be grateful.

 

Antony

[ada205 2]

Hi mate.

 

First thing to check with this fault is the Brown multi plug that lives down by the battery tray, on top of the gear box. It's infamous, and every starter problem I've had has been cured by either cleaning the connections on either side of the plug, or when really Green with corroded, removing the plug altogether and reconnecting the wires with new connectors. Think theres 7 wires in the plug, which are mainly for dash lights and gauges, such a battery light, oil light and pressure, temp ect. The fattest of the wires is the one that goes to the solenoid, though cant remember colour.

 

I'd be very carefull indeed with your plan of of touching the solenoid directly with a wire from the battery+, as it's major tight getting to the solenoid and could very easily touch earths. Theres a lot of metal around there. Unfortunately, if your motor or solenoid is the fault, then it's awkard to say the least. Someone on here may have a few trick, but in my experience, it's a pain! Try the plug first mate, it could save you a lot of time and hassle.

 

Good luck.

[Guest antgel]

Hi mate.

 

First thing to check with this fault is the Brown multi plug that lives down by the battery tray, on top of the gear box. It's infamous, and every starter problem I've had has been cured by either cleaning the connections on either side of the plug, or when really Green with corroded, removing the plug altogether and reconnecting the wires with new connectors. Think theres 7 wires in the plug, which are mainly for dash lights and gauges, such a battery light, oil light and pressure, temp ect. The fattest of the wires is the one that goes to the solenoid, though cant remember colour.

 

Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look. The only thing I don't quite get is that this only seems to happen when the car is hot, and I'm not sure how a bad or corroded connection relates to that.

 

I'd be very carefull indeed with your plan of of touching the solenoid directly with a wire from the battery+, as it's major tight getting to the solenoid and could very easily touch earths. Theres a lot of metal around there. Unfortunately, if your motor or solenoid is the fault, then it's awkard to say the least. Someone on here may have a few trick, but in my experience, it's a pain! Try the plug first mate, it could save you a lot of time and hassle.

 

Good luck.

 

I would touch the wire the other way around.

 

This is going to be a real pain to diagnose. It's only happened three times in three months, and two of those were today. In a way, I wouldn't mind if it started happening more often, then I could at least have a crack at the problem when it occurs.

[ada205 2]

Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look. The only thing I don't quite get is that this only seems to happen when the car is hot, and I'm not sure how a bad or corroded connection relates to that.

I would touch the wire the other way around.

I know what your saying. Seems like the fault shows it's self in hot conditions, and would expect corroded connections to probably play up more in cold, damp conditions.

This is going to be a real pain to diagnose. It's only happened three times in three months, and two of those were today. In a way, I wouldn't mind if it started happening more often, then I could at least have a crack at the problem when it occurs

Yeah, it always seems to be this way with 205's! One of mine is intermittently cutting out at the moment, and it really know's when to picks it's moments, yet gives you sod all time to try and change anything!

 

Good luck anyway. Sure someone on here will come to your aid.

[jackherer 543]

Seems like the fault shows it's self in hot conditions, and would expect corroded connections to probably play up more in cold, damp conditions.

 

heat makes the contacts expand I would have thought. Either way this is classic brown multiplug corrosion issues.

[eddie_1.9 1]

Theres a dodgy spade connection on the starter solinoid. In all my 205's this has been the cuplirt of hot starting woes. Usually have to replace the whole wire from the multi plug to the solinoind. I just solder it straight onto the terminal so's to eliminate any possible future dampness or expanding connector issues

 

Don't be tempted to fall into the trap of trying to get at the starter with the inlet manifold in place. It no biggy to whip it off and then its plain sailing, and will save time in the long run

Edited May 5, 2006 by eddie_1.9

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Don't be tempted to fall into the trap of trying to get at the starter with the inlet manifold in place. It no biggy to whip it off and then its plain sailing, and will save time in the long run

 

That depends on the options fitted to your car, no power steering or air-con and a block mounted oil cooler and starter access isn't all that bad although I wouldn't want to work on the multiplug with the manifold on.

 

Rob

 

P.S. Not all starter solenoid problems are the multiplug but it is a good place to start.

[Wurzel 16]

Mine is currently the same.

 

When the engine is cold, it turns over, but not as quickly as it should and to be honest, the motor sounds a bit ropey. When the engine is hot, the starter will hardly turn over and certainly not fast enough to get the engine started (flat battery symptoms). Leave to cool and it starts fine (all be it not turning very fast and sounding ropey as previously mentioned).

 

I have an 'auxilliary' wire coming direct from the spade connector on the starter so that I can touch it to the +ve battery terminal. I have to do this as I to have a few turn the key to start issues as well. I've cleaned up the brown multiplug terminals endless times, I suspect the cable that is crimped into the back of the spade connectors is also a bit past its best due to corrosion.

 

In my case it looks like the starter motor is on it's way out as I have also fed new earths direct to the mounting bolts and chassis

 

Like Rob says, the multiplug is a good place to start

[Phil H 16]

when mine did this a new solenoid on the motor cured it.

[Guest antgel]

Thanks to all who replied. I have a recon motor and will make sure to clean all plugs in the vicinity. It's hard to tell if this will sort the issue, as it's so intermittent, but here's hoping...

[stutto 0]

Amazing. Pretty much exactly the same has happened to me today. I had problems starting once a few weeks ago and then I had to call the AA twice today. I'm off to check out this brown plug.

 

Antgel if you could update this thread with how it goes - I would be grateful.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Guest andyfitz]

I too have this problem,

 

when the car's been run it sometimes takes a few clicks on the key to get the car to start, you can hear the solonoid kicking out, but the motor does not turn.

 

It's not a massive problem for me because the car's never failed to start on me, but iv'e put another starter on and that did nothing, ill try cleaning the multiplug and hopefully that will cure it.

[ada205 2]

I too have this problem,

 

when the car's been run it sometimes takes a few clicks on the key to get the car to start, you can hear the solonoid kicking out, but the motor does not turn.

 

It's not a massive problem for me because the car's never failed to start on me, but iv'e put another starter on and that did nothing, ill try cleaning the multiplug and hopefully that will cure it.

Hi mate.

 

Your symptoms really are classic multiplug problems. My first two gti's did exactly as you describe, with repeated flicks of the key needed untill the solenoid finally managed to fully engage. Every failed attempt was met with a click as the solenoid again failed to make full travel with it's plunger!

 

Did you change just the starter, all both starter and solenoid? Either way, I'd put money on the plug, but if not, check main earths also. If the plug is really Green & corroded, cut it out and either solder or use new connectors to rejoin the wires. Do one wire at a time though, as on one of mine, some of the wires on one side of the plug were a completely different colour to the wires on the other side!

[Guest andyfitz]

Nice to know these little problems we all get are easyly fixed

 

Well I bought the car from a friend who said he'ed had the motor changed, but I imagine it's the multiplug thats causing it, if it's really bad I shall cut the wires and solider on some nice new pieces

[Pug_101 0]

I am not suffering this problem, yet!

but was wondering how many wires pass through this multiplug and what do they do?

Thanks

[ada205 2]

I am not suffering this problem, yet!

but was wondering how many wires pass through this multiplug and what do they do?

Thanks

Cant be sure my memory's up to this as i dont have a car at home i can check on at the moment, but think there's seven, and sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong anyway.. On the engine side of the plug the wires go to alternator, oil presure gauge sender, oil light switch, solenoid(the fatest wire on the plug), oil temp sender at back of sump, water temp, and engine temp i think, not sure about this one, think it's the yellow wire?

[Adam B 0]

Just for anyone reading this without a brown multiplug. They didn't all have them!

You will however have similar connections around the oil filler/inlet manifold area. So give them a clean.

Most likely to be the solenoid sticking.

Replace starter motor as clouting it wont help for long and is only a 15 min job (dont need to remove the inlet manifold watch the rad).

Could also be:

1. a dodgy ignition barrel on high milers, but this is less heat related.

2. dodgy wiring to the solenoid (wires break up in time)

3. crap battery which is subject to heat sink.

4. crap earth lead from the battery or connections on the battery.

 

You'll never guess the problems I had with my 205

Edited May 8, 2006 by Adam B

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Adam,

 

what you have to take off depends how many toys you have on the car. The more toys the worse it gets. Done a couple on my non-everything cars and it is a quick job as you say but it is more tricky with a remote oil filter and PAS fitted.

 

Rob

[stutto 0]

Mine failed to start on me again today. Again it was a warm start, the car had probably been stood for about 30 mins.

 

Yet to happen to me when cold, is this likely to be a sensor problem? ( I cleaned the multiplug on the day of my previous post, when it happened twice, and have not had it happen since - regardless of how long it was left eg getting petrol)

 

Idea's? Or is it likely to be multiplug - which showed no signs of major corrosion.

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

It is the signal to starter solenoid (from the ignition) or the starter itself (or a combination of the two). Ceratinly not any sensor...

[stutto 0]

It is the signal to starter solenoid (from the ignition) or the starter itself (or a combination of the two). Ceratinly not any sensor...

 

Starter looks very new, I did not replace it, and I started it yesterday by joining the smallest post on the starter, closest to the rad, to the positive of the battery and it started straight away (as it did when the AA did it ). So I guess that leaves me with the signal to the starter solenoid.

 

What do I check?

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Spot on. Of three of my cars only 1 has been bad enough for me to fix it so far (but they all do it occasionally)!

 

On the one I fixed I found that with the starter dicsonnected there was a voltage drop between the starter and the ignition. This indicates a bad connection with a current draw, which is odd as with the starter disconnected there should be no current draw apart from the tachy! I never poked further than that though, I just added a wire in parallel with the existing one (with an inline fuse), soldered it to the ignition line after the immobiliser and then ran it to a piggy back connector on the starter so I could connect both wires. Never had a problem since but it isn't the most elegant solution.

 

Rob

[stutto 0]

I just added a wire in parallel with the existing one (with an inline fuse), soldered it to the ignition line after the immobiliser and then ran it to a piggy back connector on the starter so I could connect both wires.

Rob

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

May have to do this myself, except mine has a post for the solenoid connection so I guess i would use another eyelet instead of having to piggy back onto a blade connector.

 

What rating fuse did you use? Worth considering a relay?

 

Chris.

[Guest werewolf]

I know this may sound stupid but do you have to use a special terminal block to replace the multiplug or can you still get the multiplug as a part on its own.Got same prob of hot starting hence the post

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Werewolf: The multiplug is a piece of poor design and is best replaced with something that is weather proof if you are going to replace it. Doubt you can get it direct from Pug but certainly similar types of connectors are available although as said if I were going to the effort of replacing it I'd choose a better connector if at all possible.

 

Stutto: TBH I can't remember what fuse I used, one with a rating the same as the wire I used so 10 amp at a guess. Using a fuse is probably overkill but I'm a cautious soul and I had one to hand so it was no effort to fit it!

 

Rob

 

P.S. If you have a post connector then yes a second eyelet will do the job, easier than a piggy back blade although every one I have seen has a blade connector! Don't worry about a relay, the current draw isn't that high, just use a similar gauge wire to the original and you will be fine.