8v Mappable Ignition

[Kitsune 0]

I was originally using my 3D ignition kit on my old 8V, this kit is now destined for a 16V. Not knowing much about how it all works, I'm guessing this will need to be remapped to the 16V. Not a problem in itself but the engine its going on is a fully rebuilt one so dont exactly want to take it to a RR and have it rev'd off if its not run in.

 

My question is, will the car run without the 3D ignition kit (untill its run in at least) while still using the coilpack, or is this going to cause grief?

 

The other thing is, if the kit is retained for the time being, would it run effectively like an 8v?

 

Its the weber alpha kit, and I know they aren't very forthgiving with their software, so couldnt exactly use another map from elsewhere which I'm sure would be the easiest option. Unless anyone has any alpha software about?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

AFAIK it would run on the 8v map but it would definately need a re-map.

 

It have much advance & you'd risk holing a piston on the 8v map, just like the Mi16 will run on MP3.1 with an ecu mapped for an 8v as standard but just not very well. (bad mpg etc).

 

Surely a weber alpha dealer would be able to source you a base map for a 16v engine in a 205. I'm sure you wouldn't be the first person to do this using their system.

 

Graham.

[Kitsune 0]

Cheers for the info Graham. Alpha dealers are hard to come by but I understand Owen Developments do the Alpha kit. Will give then a try and see what they say.

 

I think i'll stay well away from running it on the 8V map then!

 

The other thing is though, will the car still work without it being connected up to the Alpha kit? What controls the coilpack?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Is the Alpha kit just ignition or ignition & fuelling?

 

To run the car without using the Alpha kit you'd need to have a seperate ignition source somehow afaik.

 

You'd be ok to run the engine on the 8v map initially but if its a brand new engine it might not be wise.

 

You could try giving Wayne at chipwizards a call & see if he know whether a chip from another management system could be used as an interim measure instead of using the 8v map if Owen aren't forthcoming with a suitable map.

 

Graham.

[Kitsune 0]

I'm just running the ignition side of things (for carbs).

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Kits, is it an Alpha or Alpha plus kit?

 

Alpha can be mapped by most places but Alpha plus is Weber agents only I understand.

 

I think it'll run as it is on carbs but will need re-mapping from the 8v map, reasons as above.

 

Owen devlopments have a few cars at Harewood usually but I didn't see them there today or I'd have asked.

 

Graham.

[Kitsune 0]

Kits, is it an Alpha or Alpha plus kit?

 

Owen devlopments have a few cars at Harewood usually but I didn't see them there today or I'd have asked.

 

Graham.

 

 

As far as I was aware, its the Alpha Silver kit, so not sure about the 'plus' side of things. Can you expand?

 

Harewood? Lost on me mate.

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

As far as I was aware, its the Alpha Silver kit, so not sure about the 'plus' side of things. Can you expand?

Not exactly, I was just told there are two kinds of kits, the original that can be mapped by anyone with the knowledge & the newer Aplha plus that is weber agent specific.

Harewood? Lost on me mate.

Harewood House Hillclimb, I was there yesterday & they sometimes have a couple of bike engined things running there.

 

Graham.

[Anthony 1,000]

Could just use an 8v dizzy adapter to run the ignition whilst you run the engine in? Be a simple solution until you'd got a few miles on it and can then get the Alpha setup properly mapped.

[Kitsune 0]

Not exactly, I was just told there are two kinds of kits, the original that can be mapped by anyone with the knowledge & the newer Aplha plus that is weber agent specific.

 

Graham.

 

 

It is somewhat old (in the region on 2000/2001).

 

Anthony, I did consider this option but it would mean getting in a few new bits. Im not too up on how it all goes together either. With the current wires and set-up, I can take my orginal 8v wiring from my old shell and put it straight into the new one, safe in the knowledge that I dont have to mess about with too much (electrics are not my thing). I'm gunna guess theres a how to on the main site here though?

[mfield 20]

You should be able to retard the ignition by moving the trigger sensor and then drive it to a mapper. I can't see how taking it to a weber approved dealer will cost any more, there is a map of where they are on webcon's home page

 

After looking into the use of the ignition system on the 16v from the 8v all i could see where there might be an issue is the mounting height of the triiger sensor and that the trigger wheel might need a washer behind it to go on the 16v bottom pulley.

[Kitsune 0]

When I had my engine built I took the old CPS and toothed wheel along so thats fitted already.

 

Actually getting to a mapper isn't the issue though mate, (theres one not that far). Its more over the engine is brand spanking and as it'll need to be remapped, I dont want it on the rollers till its run in. So how do I go about that if i've only got the ignition set up (coilpack in this instance) for the 8v.

[mfield 20]

The 8v ignition isn't to far out tbh from the 16v, just think how many people use the 8v dizzy on the 16v engine ?

 

If you just retard the ignition abit it will be fine then get to the mapper's and gt the 16v map put on, i know they'll have this because they have dedicated software at the weber dealers ( seen it at NM when i was there )

 

Webcon use what's called "turn key" kits which have std setup's for engine's. Use that then get the car mapped after it's run in

 

 

P.s. I want a mk1 so bad

Edited March 28, 2006 by mfield

[Anthony 1,000]

Anthony, I did consider this option but it would mean getting in a few new bits. Im not too up on how it all goes together either. With the current wires and set-up, I can take my orginal 8v wiring from my old shell and put it straight into the new one, safe in the knowledge that I dont have to mess about with too much (electrics are not my thing). I'm gunna guess theres a how to on the main site here though?

I've got an 8v dizzy adapter (and no doubt dizzy and cap/arm too) that you're welcome to borrow if that would help? Basically just run the 8v wiring and ignition parts, and adjust the dizzy position until the ignition timing is such so that the engine runs properly and doesn't pink under load (just like on an 8v really).

 

The 8v dizzy advance curve isn't ideal for the Mi by any means (although plenty of people use it because they're too cheap to do things properly with mappable ignition ), but it's certainly plenty good enough to run the engine in without risking damaging anything

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

How I understand it is that the weber aplha system does away with the standard wiring for the dizzy (& the dizzy itself) judging by how Kits mentions the coilpack so his car might no longer have the loom for it all to be fitted. I've got an old Max Power somewhere when they fitted the Weber Alpha system to a car in there attempts to get more power out of the 8v before fitting the Mi. I'll have a look soon.

 

Graham.

[TT205 42]

Just for info

 

Alpha ECU has an embossed 'X' on it - have a look at http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/images/aecu.jpg

 

Alpha Plus ECU has an embossed '+' on it with 'Alpha' embossed on the horizontal leg - have a look at http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/images/aplusecu.jpg

 

Dave

[Kitsune 0]

Dave, hats off to you mate, I will have a look at my Alpha ECU and see whats on it.

 

Graham, that would be pretty helpful as I have no idea when it comes to wiring so couldn't say if it had the bits I needed or not. All I know is that it doesnt have the standard dizzy (it has a custom blanking plate with the coilpack attached on the cam end) and some proper connections coming from a well sorted loom (ie, not looking too bodged).

 

Anthony, will have to see what Graham comes back with, though it would be much easier for me to use what I have.

 

Mfield, I know what your saying as this kit was a 'turn key' kit (pre-set for the 8v on carbs as such). I can only hope they would have something along those lines, like a base map for the 16v.

 

If not, and depending on what wiring I have left, I might have to go with either Anthonys option or, err, hope they have a 16v map that I can use while getting the car run in.

 

This brings me to another question, what would be so different about the base map as opposed to going back after its all run in and getting it remapped again? This side of the ignition is all virgin territory to me.

 

Cheers all for the help.

[Anthony 1,000]

How I understand it is that the weber aplha system does away with the standard wiring for the dizzy (& the dizzy itself) judging by how Kits mentions the coilpack so his car might no longer have the loom for it all to be fitted.

I was taking the following quote to mean that he still had the original 8v Jetronic wiring, but having read it again in a different context, maybe he means the 8v Alpha wiring - in which case, like you say, it's no good for what I suggested...

I can take my orginal 8v wiring from my old shell and put it straight into the new one, safe in the knowledge that I dont have to mess about with too much (electrics are not my thing

Sorry for any confusion, but to clarify, what I said a few posts above about running an 8v dizzy adapter only applies to the original 205 GTi Jetronic wiring loom and not to the Alpha ECU wiring...

[Kitsune 0]

I better hope I can get a 16v map then!

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

I've found the Max Power issue with it in & unfortunately its on an 8v & looks like it still has the dizzy.

 

Its the one with the mega test against the Testerosa which is in the PSOOC members area.

 

If you have a complete loom from a standard 205 for the ecu wiring etc then it shouldn't be to much work to fit that & make use of the dizzy adaptor but I'd wait until you'd exhausted all possibilities looking for a suitable 16v map first.

 

Graham.

[mfield 20]

There are two version's graham

 

One that uses a coil pack and one that uses the dizzy, the one that uses the dizzy only uses it as a pointing device much like the cap and arm on a mi.

[Kitsune 0]

Cheers for looking Graham, will have a nose in the members area.

 

Can anyone tell me a bit more about the difference between using a base map and then having it remapped once its run in?

[Mattsav 1]

I can supply a base map thats somewhere near to get some miles on it as long as your Webber agent can put the values into the ECU for you.

[petert 550]

There's a full map at the end of this topic:

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=55730

 

It's actually a bit more than a base map. It was from a 200hp 16V . Note the dip to 27 at 3500. That equals torque. If you verify a reference point correctly, ie 10 deg. BTDC in software equals 10 deg. BTDC mechanically, you'll be pleased with the results.

[Kitsune 0]

Matt, what format is this supplied in btw?

 

Pete, being a total noob with this, what does it all mean!?