Jenvey Throttle Bodies On The Mi16 - The Results

[petert 550]

Was that running a Quaife diff and sticky A048's at all?

 

No, probably std., I didn't do it:

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31502

 

All the cars I have dynoed do have a Quaife and sticky tyres however.

[petert 550]

Reality Check #2. If you're still running standard Mi16 injectors and fuel pressure, then it's 185hp max. There just isn't enough calories in a litre of petrol to make any more.

[Butler 0]

BMW M3 Injectors. So essentially its not a completely standard engine.

[Batfink 201]

Look, I'm not saying that my car definatley has 200bhp (or rather 199.2), that's just what it made on that dyno.. but what I am saying and will defend the end of time is that on my car fitting a set of 45mm Jenvey Throttle Bodies combined with BMW M3 injectors, 4 bar of fuel pressure, wasted spark ignition, MoTeC M48 ECU is gave a power increase of 30bhp (well, it was 28.8 actually) as proven by a before/after graph.

 

Your only looking like a moody argumentative tw&t with all these agressive posts... grow up!

 

im not going to get into a pissing contest but what sets your car different from mine is the fuel regulator and the injectors (if we say ecu's are equal in ability to get the same peak power)

Mine made 174bhp at G-force in aylesbury - who I highly regard as accurate. Stew (when he owned the car got it rr'ed at 190+)

Do the standard injectors limit these setups, and so a better fueling system increase power?

I dont believe that 200bhp is accurate but really it doesnt matter

use the rr as a guide to know the mods worked

You know its increased at least and you know it will be faster round the track.

[Jonmurgie 2]

Reality Check #2. If you're still running standard Mi16 injectors and fuel pressure, then it's 185hp max. There just isn't enough calories in a litre of petrol to make any more.

 

Sorry, if you read up a few posts you will see that I missed a couple of things off the spec!!

 

BMW M3 Injectors

4 Bar Fuel Pressure

 

OK

[GLPoomobile 958]

I really didn;t want to get involved with this as these sort of discussions are not really my bag, but I'm annoyed.

 

Jon came on to post an update to a subject that I'm sure various form members had been following and were looking forward to seeing the results of. As far as I can tell, he didn;t post this topic to brag.

 

Despite this, various people have jumped down his throat and treated him like he is your typical Max Power chav bragging about his 300BHP corsa

 

We all know these results are open to interpretation and should be taken with a pinch of salt, do we really need another week long debate about a subject that everyone on here has heard a gazzilion times before?

 

With reference to the comment about posts like these making other people think that they can achieve over 200bhp on a standard Mi16 with bodies 'because that guy Jon off the forum did' - well if somebody is stupid enough to think like that then fair play to them. We are not repsonsible for other people's stupidity.

 

Roll on another 12 pages of pointless banter

[kate205gti 4]

have you got any more info on those injectors please jon?

 

ive got a similar spec'd engine running 4 bar on standard injectors, am hoping to get up to emerald soon and have a remap on bigger injectors and see what the difference really is

 

ive picked up some rover 220 turbo injectors to try - just wondered if they were similar to those bmw ones?

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I seem to remember Miles engine also used non-standard injectors, while Whitey (I think that was his name) with the BX 16v that struggeled to make good power with his BX 16v on 45mm Jenveys were using standard injectors.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

Yes, that's what I remember as well.

 

what is the Bosch number of the Beemer M3 squirters?

[rich_w 0]

Last time I went to the Power Station for the PGAC rolling road day thingy last year I did think that the PS rollers were realling high, 106 gti's with the pug sport style air intake kits were getting around 145bhp (if I remember correctly).

 

Just to contradict what I said at the start, I remember reading on the EVO forum some years ago about a Seat RR day @ PS, the poster mentioned that the chipped Seat Owners were bitching cos they werent making the power they were suppose to, the odd thing was that the std Seats where making what was claimed

 

Now what if Jon's car had 160BHP on the RR the first time and after the remap it had 190BHP would everyone still kick up such a fuss?

 

How many serious race cars use an emerald or DTA? (Should I put DTA there?)

[jshep205gti 3]

Woah, I didn't realise how obsessed people are with rolling road figures.

I thought it was just a way to compare modification, just like Jon has... not to take the figures literally. Especially at Power Station!

Bet you are well happy with the result though Jon! Your car must go like feck now!

Good job!!

 

 

Shep

 

And to all the poeple that are clearly jealous of Jon's 200bhp 205, why don't they get down to a Power Station RR and see what their car makes....?!?!

[rjw205 8 3 Cars]

Jon - I'm pleased for you, I'm sure the car will feel great.

 

Rich

[Dino 3]

I seem to remember Miles engine also used non-standard injectors, while Whitey (I think that was his name) with the BX 16v that struggeled to make good power with his BX 16v on 45mm Jenveys were using standard injectors.

 

Aparrently that BX had internal engine issues though.....

 

These results are over on the Psooc forum too and one of the replies mentioned much "willy waving" over on this forum!!!

 

Yeah so what if the 200bhp figure isnt accurate at least its some kind of comparison to how the std inlet and management performs

 

Clearly if your car is painted VW Inky Blue then it's the fastest......

 

Only kidding Maxi

Edited March 7, 2006 by Dino

[Butler 0]

To be fair Jon did pretty much what everyone asks for. RR'd a car. Fitted some mods. RR'd it again on the same rollers to show how effective the mods were. You can't ask for anymore really.

Edited March 7, 2006 by Butler

[Dom9 2]

Yep, he did what everyone wanted and he has posted his results, which is great and he should definitely be happy!

 

I think the point is that the chances are that this rolling road is reading a little on the high side... Not a problem in itself but the point of this forum actually is for someone to be a pioneer, do something, test it and let us look at the results...

 

If someone see's that Jon got 200bhp from TB's and management on what might be a tired engine, then they pay Matt to put together a nice new engine on TB's thinking they will get 200bhp, go to Emerald and get 180bhp... Who's going to get a nasty phone call?

 

Jon reported his results, which is great, I think Maxi's point is valid though... Don't expect to spend £1k on a rebuilt Mi, £2k on TB's and management and expect to have 200bhp... If you want to break the 200bhp barrier for whatever reason then expect to have to budget for cams and maybe even some headwork!

 

At the end of the day, we all know this forum is not about who has the fastest car, it's about having fun doing what we do with the money we have... Jons effectively bolted on some bits, put it on the RR and got a number, as long as he is happy, that's all that matters... There just needs to be a word of warning that this is NOT the result we would all get by bolting TB's on.

 

The injector thing does interest me though... Could the spray appterns be different, helping the power? Maybe Jons engine had had the head skimmed at some point and he is running a higher compression? Maybe it had 3 angle seats before he got it? The problem is we don't know and the fact that it made more than standard power the first time would suggest that either the rollers are reading high or the engine had some work done...

 

Lets all have a shootout one of these days - go on!

[PumaRacing 1]

Wheres Puma, im sure he would have something to say about this......

 

Maxi

 

I've said most of it on my website and multiple times on here so there's not much new to add. Basically I agree with PeterT. The wheel figure has gone up by 19 bhp and that's how much faster the car will go.

 

When I used to make and sell TB's I got a lot of feedback on the gains, some from engine dynos. On engines of about Mi16 power you can normally expect in the low 20s extra bhp. Obviously it depends on how restrictive the standard plenum and air filter is and that will change as the engine is tuned more. The Mi16 plenum is not too bad anyway so the gains aren't as high as some engines can show. I had engine dyno feedback on a race tuned Zetec which gained 27 bhp (up from 174 to 201 bhp) but that's about the highest back to back gain at this sort of power level and the standard plenum was clearly getting restrictive with the engine 40 bhp up on standard.

 

If you add 10% for extra transmission losses then 19 at the wheels becomes 21 extra at the flywheel and that looks right in the ballpark.

 

Clearly the wheel figures at Powerstation are too low and the coastdown losses and flywheel figures too high. It's therefore pointless applying normal transmission loss factors to their wheel figures and expecting to get a realistic flywheel figure. Might as well just take ones best guess at what an engine in a particular spec ought to show and for this one I'd say in the 180 to 185 bhp range. Another standard Mi16 with TB's shows 180 on the Dastek rollers in Aberdeen and they give very realistic wheel and coastdown figures.

 

All I would add is that IMO it's important for a rolling road to give accurate wheel bhp figures rather than just comparable back to back ones and no reason why a properly calibrated one can't as that's all it's designed to measure. Over the years when I've had the same car on several different rollers I'd say most do give similar wheel bhp figures although the coastdown figures are more variable. Only a few rollers stand out as being significantly inaccurate such as these ones and the ones at Skip Brown's. I suggest people vote with their wallets and just don't go somewhere if the wheel power figures are not realistic. Maybe that will force operators to get their equipment in line with other people's but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[GLPoomobile 958]

If someone see's that Jon got 200bhp from TB's and management on what might be a tired engine, then they pay Matt to put together a nice new engine on TB's thinking they will get 200bhp, go to Emerald and get 180bhp... Who's going to get a nasty phone call?

 

Nasty phone call about what?

'I paid you to build me a 200bhp engine and it's only producing 180bhp!'

'No, you paid me to fit ITBs to your standard Mi16, nobody promised 200bhp'

'But that guy Jon got 200bhp on his'

'And your point is?'

 

If an engine builder/tuner promises a customer 200bhp from this kind of package THEN the customer would have some comeback if the results were a let down. Realistically, a good builder/tuner would advise the customer that they are unlikely to achieve 200bhp from said package.

 

So as I said before, if someone is stupid enough to stump cash to have ITBs fitted and expect 200bhp, based on what somebody on here may or may not have achieved, and without discussing his aims with the builder/tuner doing the work, then they are a stupid inidividual and and nobody on here is responsible for that. There is more than enough education on this forum.

Edited March 7, 2006 by GLPoomobile

[Revla 2]

My 2 pence (or less) worth....

 

As Dave say's SBC's rollers are out - but they are only used as a gauge really.

My 309 with RobSBC's old 1.9 roadspeed engine running with standard inlet produced 130bhp on

their rollers last month. Now I know its got more than a standard lump - but not that much more.

I tend to agree that a standard Mi with bodies seems out of the norm to produce 200bhp.

 

As I said, they use their figures as a gauge to see how the car is running, whereas Dave Walker's rollers at Emerald are far more accurate, and regularly calibrated. A standard Mi with bodies is around 175bhp at Emerald normally I think. My standard S16 with 95k on the clock and skimmed head produced 160.7BHP.

 

My car produced 202bhp at Emerald a couple of weeks back, and I was hoping to hit the 200, so I was happy with the result. Is it accurate - who knows, but its great to drive - which is the main thing?

 

We (group of) should go to a known good rollers, and compare graphs etc from that to gain a fairer comparison?

 

Cheers

 

Trev

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

he is your typical Max Power chav bragging about his 300BHP corsa

 

 

Couldnt have put it better myself. As far as im concerned this gives people the same impression and pub knowledge as I have bolted a new halfords backbox on my car and its gained 10BHP... we all know that dosent happen.

 

I couldnt give a toss what your car makes power wise and the only real way to tell is to have it directly bolted to an engine dyno, however, this will cause chaos. As I previously posted and have been backed up in is that the not so familiar members of this forum or the PSOOC are now going to for arguments sake ring matt, order a set of bodies and an ecu and expect nearly 200BHP. Reality unfortunately will dictate it will be closer to 175-180BHP.

 

Jon, why exactly am I an argumentative twat?? Why exactly do I need to grwo up?? Because I dare to question this load of dogs*it excuse for a RR result??? Just think if it was someone else, wouldnt you be slightly doubtful of the figures too??? Calling me a twat will get you no where and will just in turn make me more and more angry. Im not bothered about bucking the trend and im not worried about who dosent like me. Everyone who has taken a disliking to me online gets on fine with me in person.

 

Dino; Why post that?? My car isnt the fastest by a long way, at the moment its very slow due to my management problems.

 

Maxi

[RobMGti 0]

Couldnt have put it better myself. As far as im concerned this gives people the same impression and pub knowledge as I have bolted a new halfords backbox on my car and its gained 10BHP... we all know that dosent happen.

 

I couldnt give a toss what your car makes power wise and the only real way to tell is to have it directly bolted to an engine dyno, however, this will cause chaos. As I previously posted and have been backed up in is that the not so familiar members of this forum or the PSOOC are now going to for arguments sake ring matt, order a set of bodies and an ecu and expect nearly 200BHP. Reality unfortunately will dictate it will be closer to 175-180BHP.

 

Jon, why exactly am I an argumentative twat?? Why exactly do I need to grwo up?? Because I dare to question this load of dogs*it excuse for a RR result??? Just think if it was someone else, wouldnt you be slightly doubtful of the figures too??? Calling me a twat will get you no where and will just in turn make me more and more angry. Im not bothered about bucking the trend and im not worried about who dosent like me. Everyone who has taken a disliking to me online gets on fine with me in person.

 

Dino; Why post that?? My car isnt the fastest by a long way, at the moment its very slow due to my management problems.

 

Maxi

 

Am i the only one who perhaps think you should politley stfu? This thread has gone way out of control....

 

Its like kids with ice creams - my 99 is bigger than yours, but mine has sprinkles, yes but yours are chocolate ones, i have a flake, but its a smaller flake, the flake measuring guage is inaccurate meaning my flake may be an inch smaller than yours, lets kill the flake measuring device manufacturer!!!!

 

Oh my god an Ice Lolly.....

[Col 0]

excellent banter

[Dom9 2]

Nasty phone call about what?

'I paid you to build me a 200bhp engine and it's only producing 180bhp!'

'No, you paid me to fit ITBs to your standard Mi16, nobody promised 200bhp'

'But that guy Jon got 200bhp on his'

'And your point is?'

 

If an engine builder/tuner promises a customer 200bhp from this kind of package THEN the customer would have some comeback if the results were a let down. Realistically, a good builder/tuner would advise the customer that they are unlikely to achieve 200bhp from said package.

 

So as I said before, if someone is stupid enough to stump cash to have ITBs fitted and expect 200bhp, based on what somebody on here may or may not have achieved, and without discussing his aims with the builder/tuner doing the work, then they are a stupid inidividual and and nobody on here is responsible for that. There is more than enough education on this forum.

 

There are plenty of stupid people out there who will expect something and complain when it doesn't deliver...

 

How many tuners are there out there who would be happy quoting this as an example of what you GET with TB's...?

 

Nobody on here is responsible, but there are plenty of stupid people able to search the web and find this thread...

 

Not everyone who sells engine parts or tuning is good... Sadly, most aren't... It's naive to believe that everyone goes to the good/honest ones...

 

 

I couldnt give a toss what your car makes power wise and the only real way to tell is to have it directly bolted to an engine dyno, however, this will cause chaos. As I previously posted and have been backed up in is that the not so familiar members of this forum or the PSOOC are now going to for arguments sake ring matt, order a set of bodies and an ecu and expect nearly 200BHP. Reality unfortunately will dictate it will be closer to 175-180BHP.

 

Thank you Maxi... And because someone reads this and thinks they will get 200bhp, does that make them stupid?

 

Everyone is always so keen to get in an argument over things... He may not be a delicate soul but Maxi speaks the truth and from experience... You don't need to be a genius to be a bit sceptical about those numbers but if you do believe them, does that make you stupid? Not everyone spends years reading forums before making a decision...

 

If I wanted a question answered about getting 200bhp from an Mi, found this thread on the web and it had no scepticism in it, I bought bodies and didn't make near 200bhp would I be stupid? I know I would be disappointed!

 

This isn't the first thread that has degenerated into bollox... People always want to argue... John made an increase, which is great... Those TB's will be transferred to his new engine, so it really isn't that important what he got with this engine... Read between the lines and you can see what sort of increase you might get... Whether it's a true 200bhp engine or not is irrelevant really, unless someone particularly wants 200bhp and believes they can get it from just TB's and an ECU...

 

Anyway... You can all believe what you like... If Jons happy, great - If Maxi wants to bring up a valid point, who cares how he does it, it's worth it to see some of you post why you think he's wrong! How many people on this thread have built engines? How many people on this thread have tested engines on the dyno? How many people on this thread understand gas dynamics? How many people have built genuine, repeatable 200bhp engines?

 

All opinions on this forum are valid and interesting, personal slurs and bulls*it are not!

 

Am i the only one who perhaps think you should politley stfu?

 

Quite possibly!

 

Like Adam says, if you meet him he's a good lad... I have all the time in the world for him... Which may not mean a lot to some of you as I don't think I'm the most liked person on this forum... But I don't talk s*it (about technical matters anyway) and nor does Adam...

 

And whats more, he's built enough of these Mi's to know what's what...

 

If you don't like his writing style, don't f***ing reply... If you want to see the otherside of the coin then you need people like Maxi online...

 

Jon - AGAIN, good result, it doesn't matter what the engines producing in absolute terms, it made a nice gain!

 

Everyone else - You may not get 200bhp if you bolt TB's on...

 

Everyone happy now?

[Col 0]

200bhp or not, he *might* drive like a pussy? not saying he does but who really cares, all this forum is is folk arguing now.

 

anyway, pick your toys up

[205turbz 0]

Bloody Hell.....This post has kept me busy for the last half hour reading...

 

Talk about 'toys out of the pram'

I kno the point of forums like this one is to discuss and chat but.....Jesus Christ take it easy ppl, im not taking sides to anyone but this has got all a bit silly now...

 

Anyway, not trying to put the cat amongst the pigeons but if u want real power and torque for not as much N/A costs, try a XE Lump..

 

 

 

 

 

Alex...

[kate205gti 4]

Its like kids with ice creams - my 99 is bigger than yours, but mine has sprinkles, yes but yours are chocolate ones, i have a flake, but its a smaller flake, the flake measuring guage is inaccurate meaning my flake may be an inch smaller than yours, lets kill the flake measuring device manufacturer!!!!

 

Oh my god an Ice Lolly.....

 

id like to see a flake measuring device althou i prefer to just eat the icecream

 

and everyone knows n/a is better alex