2088cc Mi Bottom End

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

It could very well be. I know he used to do work on Pugs for people as a sort of sideline, had connections to Guttmann (sp?) and to one of the Peugeot owners clubs. Maybe the Peugeot Sport Club but I don't recall the details. I know he said he had cars featured in magazines but again can't recall any details. He bought one of my first sets of TBs in 1998 which has now been sold to Kate and I did the BV Mi16 head for him a year or so ago.

 

He's very experienced in what works and what doesn't but he does tend to use different rolling roads every time so I never did quite get to grips with how definitive his feedback on power increases was. If anyone phones him they might get the full story. He used to use Emerald when they were in London so I'm sure some of my work has been seen by them but whether he's used them since they moved to Norfolk I couldn't say. It's been a while since we spoke. The last I recall is he fitted the TBs and the BV head together but I think the injectors ran out of flow capacity so they never got decent power figures. Then the TBs got sold and what happened to the BV head I have no idea.

Dave ,

 

I too remember that name...Spoke to him back in 1995 as he recommended me Skip Brown Cars...

 

From what I heard he got booted out of the Peugeot Sprort club for being a naught boy... Was treasurer at the time

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

base-1> i made it a sticky topic, thanks .

 

 

pumaracing> are your throttle bodies still unavailable?

 

maybe that's a good turn in the discussion - throttle bodies vs standard inlet?

[taffycrook 2]

maybe that's a good turn in the discussion - throttle bodies vs standard inlet?

 

There are gains to be had in fitting t/b's or carbs, i have seen better torque figures with carbs but little improvement in top end power.

Now there are many factors involved so without further tests I cannot say the ports valves or exhaust was limiting power.

But I can say due to the increase in torque that the VE has improved but max flow might not be greater.

 

Engines are complex devices, if you remove the biggest restriction to flow you have a bottle neck somewhere else.

 

In the case above it may well be the choke size, the std exh dia, limit of the head(stdvalves and no porting) or poor set up.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

After fitting the TB's to the 405 I really felt the increase in power over the whole rev range, but the difference was without any doubt mostly in the low-mid rev range, was pulling much harder there, at the top over 5000rpm it had some more grunt than standard, but it actually felt like it was runnning out of breath earlier in the rev range than with the standard inlet.

[perfecto pug 0]

cant believe i've missed out on this until now , makes interesting reading

[Sam 4]

maybe that's a good turn in the discussion - throttle bodies vs standard inlet?

 

There are gains to be had in fitting t/b's or carbs, i have seen better torque figures with carbs but little improvement in top end power.

Now there are many factors involved so without further tests I cannot say the ports valves or exhaust was limiting power.

But I can say due to the increase in torque that the VE has improved but max flow might not be greater.

 

Engines are complex devices, if you remove the biggest restriction to flow you have a bottle neck somewhere else.

 

In the case above it may well be the choke size, the std exh dia, limit of the head(stdvalves and no porting) or poor set up.

But how come so many others make decent gains with carbs/tb's on the mi16 ? Only ger seemed to not make a gain and then that day a 'decision' was made, yet others are making 180/190 bhp ?

[taffycrook 2]

Rallye

By others who do you mean? It is well documented on here that quite a few people have not had the gains expected with carbs/tb's.

In the above post I was refering to my own mi16 on 45's.

Ger made 180 bhp that is a decent result but it isnt much more than the same engine on the std inlet set up however peak torque was better, as I outlined in the post.

I also stated that without further testing I cannot lay blame to where the problem lies, tb's and carbs should work but the results are not consistant.

[Sam 4]

Martin made 180bhp, Darren [huxley309] made 190bhp, not name a couple that are on standard cams.

 

Who hasn't made expected power bar base-1, as you know its down the person setting them up more than anything.

[Sam 4]

tb's and carbs should work but the results are not consistant.

Can't agree more, seems it down to the mapper/guy setting up the carbs at the end of the day and alot of them don't cut it.

[huxley309 0]

yeah i managed 190hp but i swear she's mapped rich as she spits on occasions.....either that or the cossie greens a fuelling a bit too much so hopefully my engine build will sort this

 

im also using a 106 coilpack which id imagine would help timing a good deal

 

but as said most of it is down to the mapper which john reed is meant to be very good at...

[Sam 4]

Spits would indicate lean, and msot setups do that occasionally

[huxley309 0]

yeah but my plugs go black very quick...im guess this could be the rings and stems seals worn.....

 

bring on the rebuild eh

[taffycrook 2]

not name a couple that are on standard cams.

 

Not sure you mean these guys have cams or std engines.

If they have cams it would explain why they have gained more than average, if the std cams dont stress the std set up in terms of flow fitting carbs wont improve the situation much as they are not needed to get that power.

 

Others who have struggled, kate, animal, emeralds own bx didnt make great beans to start with.I have had 4 mi16's on the rollers all made about 170-180 bhp and that is with extensive setting up.

Compare the 188 from a red top std vauxhall on 48's with chokes too big. I blame the cam, is it too small.

This would mean Dave is correct about his bvh as he would make good gains on these cams with a bigger inlet valve. However if the head is capable of this amount of flow then more cam would have similar results at the expense of increasing the rpm where the power is produced.

 

As for the mapping, set up side of things it is easy enough to get the power side of things correct as long as its rich enough to produce the max power it will do so.

Ign is simply a case of making what you have work best.

I would say on the 36mm choke engines the set up is ok. Mine has smaller chokes 35mm but is to have 38mm soon.

[huxley309 0]

mines 190hp and totally standard mi

Edited September 26, 2004 by huxley309

[Sam 4]

Both were on standard cams.

 

Animal - hi-flow head, so hes following the current trend it seems.

Kate, made 150 bhp before i beleive as it wasn't a healthy engine, currently being rebuilt.

Emeralds own bx - well maybe it was the same as kates.

 

I would think 38mm chokes would be the best for the mi16 looking at airflow curves etc. And seen as mine runs a 36mm in 40 [won't flow as much as a 36 in 45 though]

 

Even 175/180 is a good gain over standard about the average i would expect from carbs alone, i am not saying they are going to give huge gains but i'd say 15/20bhp over standard is a decent gain in itself on an otherwise standard engine. Not sure what you are trying to say here to be honest...

[PumaRacing 1]

base-1> i made it a sticky topic, thanks .

 

 

pumaracing> are your throttle bodies still unavailable?

I'm currently trying to make arrangements for them to be available again and hopefully I'll be able to amend the website when this comes to fruition.

[KRISKARRERA 2 1 Cars]

You haven't updated your website in ages, you still have that Sierra on there

[base-1 17]

Who hasn't made expected power bar base-1, as you know its down the person setting them up more than anything.

bastard!

 

im going to check my compression when i can be arsed, i reckon months of running silly rich (thanks a lot baldwin you twat) might have started the rings on a downwards spiral

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

Both were on standard cams.

 

Animal - hi-flow head, so hes following the current trend it seems.

Kate, made 150 bhp before i beleive as it wasn't a healthy engine, currently being rebuilt.

Emeralds own bx - well maybe it was the same as kates.

From Karl @ Emerald a couple of weeks ago....

 

Emerald BX made 154BHP on plenum manifold...After throttle bodies 170 BHP...!16BHP gain...

 

Standrad 306 GTI-6 made 167BHP on their rollers and then another customers of theirs had a GTI-6 on throttle bodies and manifold (i think) got 190BHP and 155lbft...

 

Rob

[taffycrook 2]

Not sure what you are trying to say here to be honest...

 

Nor me just reporting on what I have seen from the various mi16's I have seen on carbs. Typical gains are in the same ball park as a otherwise std mi16 with repro cams.

 

All I am asking, not telling folk is, why is it some people haven't had the gains expected?

Is it the fact that the std set up isnt restrictive enough with the oe cams or any other factor to release power in spades.

The fact is the Jury is out with regards to carbs and tb's on an otherwise std mi16.

There is no doubt that on a modified engine they would be of benefit, but only when the std inlet becomes restrictive.

I have no idea when that is in terms of flow figures or power/torque.

[Allan W 0]

Std engine on 45's 38mm choke's with maniflow 4-2-1 exhaust manifold STD 309 Magnex zorst.

159bhp @ wheels do mr Puma mans flywheel calc or 15% loss gives u abot 187-190 bhp @ fly, being generous 10bhp from manifold 20 from Carbs who can tell.

 

Maybe people are still using std MI16 manifold which maybe? the restriction. or perhaps the restriction is the rest of the exhaust?

[base-1 17]

maybe i should be on 38mm chokes then

[huxley309 0]

well im using the maniflow 4-2-1 with a scorpion and longman inlet so yup id agree with the manifold being the restriction...

[Sam 4]

Or choke size i bet.

[base-1 17]

hush you!! i dont have a spare 40-50 quid