Oil Pressure Solutions Mi16

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

On the engine I'm building, a XU10J4R with orginal baffeled sump, and a XU9J4 head I'm going to make two extra drain holes on the back of the head that drains oil back into the sump.

 

Just like these guys did:

http://freetuning.free.fr/racing/preparationculasse16s.htm

 

I actually believe that may be the easiesyt solution apart from getting a dry-sump kit.

[Deadliest Pug 0]

After much deliberation with my Rover engine i'm getting a dry sump system. Much better all round IMO.

 

expensive yes, but looking at the cost of an engine rebuild it's marginal in the grand scheme of things.

 

Dave!

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

So, where to buy complete dry-sump kits for the Mi16 engine?

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

On the engine I'm building, a XU10J4R with orginal baffeled sump, and a XU9J4 head I'm going to make two extra drain holes on the  back of the head that drains oil back into the sump.

 

Just like these guys did:

http://freetuning.free.fr/racing/preparationculasse16s.htm

 

I actually believe that may be the easiesyt solution apart from getting a dry-sump kit.

It's been said often that the reason an Mi engine oil surges much worse than the 8valve engine is that oil drains back slower from the head, if this was the case the head would fill with oil which it does not.

I think the problem is down to the Mi hydraulic lifters using such a high volume of oil to operate as soon as the oil sloshes away from the pick up everything else is starved almost instantly, where as the 8 valve circuit stay's inflated longer as all the pumps feeding is the shell bearings and it's not trying to keep 16 's followers inflated.

I think this theory was proved when me and CW were on the same track days. My engine was a low mileage engine that had done about 60k and had new shells and oil pump fitted which you would expect to help it to surged less than CW's high mileage engine that was more tired and had less pressure to resist periods where the pick up was out of oil.

As it happens Chris's car surged less than mine because (I believe) had new followers fitted and mine was on it's originals.

If I went out on long session and came in and turned the engine off, then started it up after a couple of minutes, it would rattle like a bastsard for about 30seconds until the lifters had pumped up.

Where as Chris never had this problem with his, even though Chris always used to comment on mine (under normal running conditions) being a much quieter engine than his.

All the Mi engined cars that I've had anything to do with have surged that bad you can't imagine Peugeot letting the motor get past the prototype stage, but all he engined cars I've had anything to do with have been old engines. I would like to see how bad a new or properly rebuilt Mi motor surged. My guess is it would be know where near as bad.

Cheers Martin

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

One thing about oil surge.. Actaully I don't seem to have problems with this on my 205 Mi16 when running on Bridgestone Potenza RE540S Semi-slicks either.

 

As long as the oil level is topped up to maximum I don't have that problem, but if oil level is in the middle zone I'll get pressure loss and oil-light...

 

But anyway, it will probably help to get some of the oil lying up in the exhaust cam area to drain back into the sump, I can't understand if that wouldn't help.

 

When I've taken the camcover off the engine there's been quite much oil in the exhaust cam area I believe.

 

So when drilling holes in the middle between the exhaust-camfollowers and also on each side of the head at the exhaust port side with drain tubes into the sump, it must help at least a bit.

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Martin, it's funny you should mention the noisy lifters as at Croft last week I'd been on track for about 25mins of fast laps then the session was red flagged, my oil temp was at the end of the gauge but I had to go straight in the pits (ie no cool down lap(s) which I usually always do) and I noticed that it was really tapping when I restarted it a few minutes later to go back out again. I'm not sure if you normally do "as much" cool down laps as me? Plenty of people comment on my "go slows" on track to try and restore more normal running temps, especially before pitting, and this may be a reason why, depite over 175k, it's done 35+ trackdays and around 5000 track miles That's jinxed it!!

 

I don't think the hydraulic lifters and galleries have the capacity to hold much oil or whether they would affect oil pressure much (if worn for example). I suppose you will see when you fit solids to yours, but then if may not be a fair comparison as it will be a new rebuilt engine plus the oil restrictor to the head.

 

Black_Mi16; the exhaust cam is designed to run in a bath of oil as it has no effective oil spray bar. I would also imagine the amount of oil it runs in is beneficial because it sits pretty close the exhaust manifold so will be much hotter than the inlet cam side.

 

Alan_M; it's got a "z" shaped baffle across the middle, so instead of a flat vertical baffle it sort of follows the shape of the pickup as close as possible. Then the side of the sump without the oil pump it has a top plate attached with a gap at the flywheel end for oil to drain into. Also has an baffle bolted to the oil pump (from Peugeot £1.72). If you have the parts CD, there are loads of very reasonable priced baffle/trapdoors/trays etc for the S16/GTi6 engines that could probably be used in the Mi16 engine.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Well, I certainly will have to make holes for the oil spray bar so it would spray onto the exhaust-cam if starting to drill those holes.

 

As those french people did that mod to a track-car I guess it must be a good reason to why they bother doing that.

[migti 0]

CW any pics of your Z shaped baffle???

 

i was just gonna make one like the gti-6 sump,does yours work better?

 

need to make one up b4 i blow my engine to bits again and cant afford dry sump

 

cheers

jamie

[findlay 0]

need to make one up b4 i blow my engine to bits again and cant afford dry sump

And therein lies the reason I started this thread.

 

Apart from spending hundreds of pounds on this Accusump kit it appears (for car blighted by surge issues) that the best thing to do is baffle the sump and marginally overfill the oil (possibly 0.5litres?).

 

Now my logic dictates that fitting an uprated spring to the oil pump will provide naff all of an improvement as it can't increase oil pressure when it can't pick up any oil.

 

Does that sound like I've summed it up about right?

[petert 550]

Adding extra oil isn't that smart, as the crank will be whipping up a storm. The correct thing to do is find the deeper alloy sump, as used with A/C. Use this with the 17mm spacer/stiffener to get an extra litre capacity. Don't forget to lengthen the pickup 17mm to take advanatge of the extra capacity.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

On the ironblock, is it possible to take the spacerplate from the XU9J4 and put it onto the XU10 block, and then put the XU10 baffled sump on the spacerplate again, and lenghten the pickup with that combination?

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Yes, that should work, just need to lengthen the pickup by the height of the spacer/stiffener, which is probably the 17mm Petert mentions.

 

The only thing to watch out for is ground clearence.

[findlay 0]

Just sent oilman a quick email to see if he has any bonza ideas

 

I am aware the overfilling oil can have its consequences. The balance between these and low oil consequences however leads me to look more towards overfilling

 

Hi Simon,

 

If you have been browsing the 205 GTi Drivers forum you may have noticed my thread regarding oil pressures in Mi16 engines fitted to 205s.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=30605

 

Is there any advice you can offer us regarding an oil viscosity that would be less inclined to rush away from the pick-up under cornering but could also provide valuable fractions of seconds increased protection if the oil surge starves the bearings etc.

 

At the present time my engine is totally standard. My next move is to fit a baffled sump. Will this have any effect on my requirements?

 

Could you also reply including a quote for 10litres of your reccomended oil.

 

Regards,

 

Findlay Leask

PGAC Regional Leader

[findlay 0]

Yes, that should work, just need to lengthen the pickup by the height of the spacer/stiffener, which is probably the 17mm Petert mentions.

 

The only thing to watch out for is ground clearence.

Thats just what I was thinking. With the setup I have, clearance isn't massive anyway. Adding the best part of 3/4 of an inch could be tricky... and even more expensive

 

Compressions on the track aren't an issue but speedbumps, potholes and the like would need to be avoided . I like driving the 205 on the road and don't want to have to necessarily worry all the time about hitting the above (or debris) and killing the car...

[petert 550]

On the ironblock, is it possible to take the spacerplate from the XU9J4 and put it onto the XU10 block, and then put the XU10 baffled sump on the spacerplate again, and lenghten the pickup with that combination?

Yes, that is the same total depth. You'd need to lengthen the pickup 17mm.

 

I was also concerned about ground clearance, but it's not a problem with 40mm lower springs.

[findlay 0]

Here's my email reply from Simon (oilman)...

 

Findlay,

 

Thanks for your email.

 

Would use Silkolene PRO R 15w-50 on standard sump and PRO S 5w-40 when

baffled.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Intweeging

[Antoni1.9 0]

Findlay,

 

My earlier post details the accusump system i have and am about to try out -

 

The reason for this is the long history of apparent Mi oils surge problems. I was going to use a Pace dry sump - but this is £650 plus VAT, then pipework and tank etc - budget on £1000 to £1200.

 

 

I know the guys at peugeot sport quite well and talking to them, they advised that the touring car 405 Mi was terrible for oil surge problems, and the dry sump kit from pace is the one that was designed for it.

 

However, where regulations did not allow the dry sump, they used their baffle together with the accusump straight into the gallery as i have replicated - and it is fine - but the accusump needs to be a large one - the 2 pints are only of any use for pre-oiling - 4 pint is ok - but 6 is better.

 

My bill for oil protection is about £460 - which is less than half the drysump - My rebuild of the Mi is around another £1400 so the oil protection is a large cost.

 

We will see if it was money well spent .

[niklas 1]

How well does the Pug sport sump baffle work?

And how is it supposed to be fitted? Welded into placed or bolted?

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

How well does the Pug sport sump baffle work?

And how is it supposed to be fitted? Welded into placed or bolted?

There is no official Peugeot Sport baffle for an Mi16 engine. The 8v baffle can be made to fit with the alloy sump but it invovles a bit of cutting (or just using a steel sump).

 

And it doesn't seem to work.

[findlay 0]

http://www.thinkauto.com/accumulators.htm

 

Worth a lookie too

[Anthony 1,000]

http://www.thinkauto.com/accumulators.htm

That's the Accusump (or something that works on the same lines) that Antoni was talking about above.

[findlay 0]

That's the Accusump (or something that works on the same lines) that Antoni was talking about above.

I know... thats why I posted the link

[base-1 17]

Chris - Silverstone was a kind of final straw, it was just soooo bad!! thats whats prompted the temporary hatred. i have bigish problems at castle coombe aswell though, in the end last weekend i just ended up thinking sod it, if it blows up it blows up, and went for most of the 2 sessions with the gauge reading ~3.5 bar, seems to have had no affect whatsoever thankfully!

 

i think in future im going to have to be extra vigilant when i fill the oil up - ill drop in 5L and then drive somewhere totally flat and top it up to the marker (5.3 or whatever it is when you change the filter aswell), and im also going to get an air/oil cooler instead of this f***ing useless water thing - i think thats part of my problem, the oil gets too hot too fast

[oilman 7]

I spoke to Silkolene regarding this discussion and the advice I recieved was as follows:

 

Quote:

 

I’d go for Pro-R 15W/50 for the standard sump, and Pro-S 5W/40 when he’s fitted the baffled version.

 

JR

 

Unquote:

 

This may be a solution as the oil is thicker.

 

Cheers

Simon

[Rob Thomson 6]

This may be a solution as the oil is thicker.

My Mi16 engine's a bit old and knackered. Don't think it's got much in the way of stem seals left at the moment. It's currently filled with Castrol RS 10w-60 as this stops it smoking. I don't really care if there are any adverse side-effects to using this oil because my replacement engine isn't far away.

 

Anyway, I thought an added benefit of the thicker oil would be less surge, but it actually seems to do the opposite. Surge is worse than it's ever been.

 

I guess this might back up the theory that the surge is a result of oil getting stuck in the head - the thicker the oil the longer it takes to drain back to the sump.

 

Incidentally, thicker oil shouldn't make any difference through longer corners anyway. The oil will eventually settle at the same angle relative to the sump whatever its viscosity.