Oil Pressure Solutions Mi16

[findlay 0]

Had a look in here but couldn't find an appropriate thread althought I have no doubt that it has been posted before.

 

Now having had the car for a matter of days the ast thing I want to do is fry bearings due to having to back out of the throttle on left handers.

 

The oil pressure (according to the guage) is OK throttle open but the arse falls out of it throttle shut on left hand bends.

 

Basically without the long-winded story I need to know what the solutions are to avoid me knackering the engine. The solutions must also be readily available and cost effective so dry-sumping isn't really on the cards.

 

Whats everyone done and what were the results?

 

Thanks folks,

 

Findlay

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

What sort of corners are you talking about? On the road or track? and how fast does the gauge drop?

 

In general road driving the pressure on mind rarely drops, and it needs a very fast long left hand or series of bends to make the pressure drop.

 

Always make sure oil is on max too.

[Anthony 1,000]

By the sounds of things you're either low on oil or you've a dodgy connection on the gauge, as the pressure on mine doesn't drop like that even hooning around on track...

[205007 12]

i dont think there is an easy solution to oil surge tbh, ive heard that untilting helps

(i.e bashing the bulkhead) and using a gti6 sump helps as it has baffles as standard and ive also been told uprating the oil pump spring isnt much use at all for surging

 

best bet is to drive a bit steadily think how much fuel youll save...

 

wait......

 

what am i on about!

 

noooooooo

[petert 550]

I modify the XU9J4 sump to replicate the trap door baffle found in the XU10J4 (2.0L Mi16, S16 etc.). I also replicate the oil pump baffle which bolts to the std. oil pump.

 

I punt it hard on track days, left and right hand, with Yoko AO32's, and the needle never moves.

[findlay 0]

I modify the XU9J4 sump to replicate the trap door baffle found in the XU10J4 (2.0L Mi16, S16 etc.). I also replicate the oil pump baffle which bolts to the std. oil pump.

 

I punt it hard on track days, left and right hand, with Yoko AO32's, and the needle never moves.

What engine is the XU9J4?

 

Pardon my ignorance

 

It seems to be a common problem... but not one every Mi owner experiences. Is there a difference between BX and 405 engines?

[petert 550]

XU9J4 is the 1.9L Mi16 or BX16V.

 

It's not common on street car, unless oil level is low. It's very common on track cars however, especially with semi-slicks.

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

I modify the XU9J4 sump to replicate the trap door baffle found in the XU10J4 (2.0L Mi16, S16 etc.). I also replicate the oil pump baffle which bolts to the std. oil pump.

 

I punt it hard on track days, left and right hand, with Yoko AO32's, and the needle never moves.

On mine I have a centre baffle, a top plate covering as much as the top of the sump as possible and the oil pump baffle plate and at Croft Circuit I was still losing oil pressure, though when I first went there with no baffles at all the oil light would come on so it is better I suppose.

 

I also depends on the circuits, some I get none at all. At Anglesey I get a little bit of surge on the 2 chicanes so I will see next weekend if the top plate and oil pump baffle make any difference there.

[findlay 0]

What engine is the XU9J4?

I am a Cretin... I meant to ask further about XU10J4 because I hadn't read it properly.

 

C_W do you think if I sent you a sump that you could have someone fabricate another one the same as yours?

 

I understand the track issue but my car is super-darty almost as if the tyres are over inflated and holds on like a limpet so I have experienced the oil surge.

 

Just trying to be safe rather than sorry.

 

On another point at a constant speed has anyone else noticed the tappets/lifters can be heard around 3krpm?

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

XU10J4 is the 2.0Mi16/S16 engine.

 

For the sump, try PM'ing CRF450 (Martin) on here and ask if he can do something for you.

 

Re tappets: my engine is very noisy at the top end and always has been though it can be fairly quiet on the motorway (in terms of tappet noise) despite the low 1.6 gearing. Tappet noise (and other higher freq. noises) are easier to mask from the cabin than deeper noises like induction/boomy noises, so I would check that your bulkhead grommets, steering column grommet etc are ok. Even the tiniest hole will let a lot of noise though.

[findlay 0]

Cool cheers

 

Bearing in mind that I have no sound proofing in the car any noise is going to come through but I will see if I can twist myself round the rollcage and between the buckets to stick my head up behind the dash.

 

I'm a panicker and every time I hear a noise I have to work out if its new/louder etc Only done a couple of hunded miles in it so far but I have noticed this oil pressure thing makes the tappets noiser on left handers too

 

Does anyone do competition shells and bearing for Mi's? If i'm dropping the sump I might as well have a look at keeping the bottom end nice and strong

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

If you have no sound proofing or carpets then I'm not surprised your hearing noise!!!

[findlay 0]

And every noise is reason for concern with a new car

 

I can even hear rabbits fart when I drive over them

[Rob Thomson 6]

On another point at a constant speed has anyone else noticed the tappets/lifters can be heard around 3krpm?

Mine makes a very distinct rattle at 3k when the engine's under load. I used to think it was pinking, but it's running standard injection and wanging octane booster in the tank makes no difference to it. Also, I couldn't hear it when it was on the rollers last. Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that it's some weird exhaust harmonic that I don't understand at all and have stopped worrying about.

[base-1 17]

how complicated is the accusump setup? im starting to think thats my only option as on track theres feck-all i can do to prevent surge except move over and go slow

[Antoni1.9 0]

I have a 6 pint manual accusump fitted to my Mi, together with a peugeot sport baffled sump and a high pressure relief spring.

 

This really is to prevent any issues due to all the bad news I've heard about the Mi's on track.

 

 

I've done 1000 miles of running in now and I'm doing Anglesey on Saturday - so I'll let you know what happens.

 

 

For information - the guage on the accusump shows approx 100 psi when engine is cold, dropping to about 85 psi at 3000 rpm, and 45psi at idle - (minus about 7psi for accusump pre-charge)

 

 

The accusump is plumbed in directly into the oil gallery where teh oils pressuer sender is normally fitted, as you need a fairly large bore according to think automotive - this is a M16 thread., from here a 90degree swept bend takes the high pressure hose along teh block and over teh gearbox, through the bulkhead with a proper bulkhead connector, then along the passenger footwell in hose, curving around to the accusump.

 

To fit the accusump because its quite big and you need to get at the valve from the drivers seat when harnessed in - for me the neatest solution, although the purists will complain about added weight - but losing a several kilos myself would help things - I fitted a cross beam to the roll cage at the bottom of the B post. The accusump is fitted to brackets welded to this and is positioned horizontally behind the drivers seat. I can reach the valve just by reaching back with my left arm.

 

The cross tube also strengthens the cage a little, and also made it easy to fit the lower harness mounts to.

 

Budget £250 for the accusump - I spent another £72 on pipes and fittings - but this is SAFETY CRITICAL - you have oil at potentially 100 degrees plus, at up to 100 psi, inside the car - the fittings are designed for this - but get the right stuff !!.

 

 

The baffled sump was £140.00 (and an arse to fit), the spring is only £5.00 (an also an arse to fit)

 

 

Only downside to the above is the cost of the oil, you need 2x5 litres. - ALthough in the manual it says that you can reduce the oil level in the sump (only with 6pint unit) to reduce windage losses. - I'm not too fussed with this - I just want my very expensive engine to last.

 

 

Major benefit is that the engine is pre lubricated every time you start it. I turn on the ignition, open the valve, the red stop light and oil pressure lights go out, the

pressure guage climbs to about 45psi - then you start the engine - hopefully improving engine life.

 

Just before you turn off the engine, shut the valve with a fast idle and you have 6 pints of oil at approx 70 psi available for the next start.

 

 

I also prelubed the newly built engine - you do this by pushing the accusump piston down 2/3rds of its travel (with the air valve vented) - then you fill it with oil (literally with a funnel). Then you close the oil valve and with an airline (or footpump) pressurise the airside to about 50 psi.

 

When you open the oil valve - you engine is primed. - You can only do this once though without manually refilling the accusump - so you'd better hope your engine fires.

 

I hope this helps anyone thinking of an accusump as to the reality of it - but its not a 5 min install. - If your at anglesey - come and have a look - its a white E plate 1.9 with Mi16 badges on the boot and front grille.

 

 

Antoni

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

I think with pre-starting oil pressure, the engine should last far far longer. I think touring cars used to do something similar, along with pre-heating the engine.

 

Base1; which circuits have you driven on? If you are using Silverstone as a bench mark then that is probably one of the worst for oil surge I've driven on. Though nothing beats 3 Sisters in Wigan!!!

 

3 Sisters - oil light on for half a lap

 

Anglesey / Ty Croes - not bad, half pressure lost at top chicane

 

Bedford Autodrome - none (but depended on track layout used)

 

Brand Hatch Indy - pretty bad, particularly the downhill from the hairpin to the left hander)

 

Castle Combe - slight pressure loss through first chicane but not too bad

 

Croft - oil light comes on through final sharp corners with no baffle, with baffles just get half pressure loss

 

Donington Park - very good, though having got a bit faster I lose pressure round the left hander coming up out of the old hairpin past the plane.

 

Elvington - depends on layout but usually ok

 

Mallory Park - fine, none at all, despite the longest right hander ever!!

 

Oulton Park - slight pressure loss on first long left hander. Also pressure loss on the next left hander and under hard braking for the shell banked hairpin

 

Rockingham - none using the "Historic" circuit using half the banking and the infield

 

Silverstone GP Circuit - bad round the "Complex"

 

Snetterton - fine, just little lose on the chicane as you go under the bridge before the "Bomb Hole".

[Simmy 0]

i believe it's time to update your signature antoni!

[Anthony 1,000]

Thanks for the info about the Accusump Antoni - it was something I was considering for my Mi if I still get starvation problems. I hadn't really looked into in any huge depth, but now you've explained exactly how it works, it's clearly not really an option for a road car.

 

I'm hoping that just a baffled sump and slightly overfilling should be enough for me, and given Chris's comments about how his car fairs with roughly that setup, I think I should be fine for general road use and the occasional trackday.

[Antoni1.9 0]

Anthony -

 

I think you could use the accusump in a road car - but it would be essential to use the electrically controlled valve - which is about another £90.

 

This operates with the ignition - and gives much the same effect as the manual valve - although you have to be carefull if you want the ignition on for some reason, not to dump the oil - you could easily fit a seperate isolator or operating switch.

 

I would then mount the accusump in the LHS of the boot and pipe through.

 

Have a look at Anglesey -

 

Cheers

 

Antoni

 

ps Simmy - you are right !!

 

Will get round to it soon

[findlay 0]

I'm going to try and catch a word with Dave Adam this weekend @ Alford. Dave runs one of Ecosse's old Mi16 cars that they knew as the shed. He has never mentioned oil surge problems on Alford (and the way we run it... its basically all left handers). I will see what set up he is running.

 

I'm really interested to know as stressing about wrecking the engine will spoil my enjoyment of this great wee car.

[M3Evo 0]

This is a real dumb idea, but I thought I'd put it up anyway:

 

How about finding a V8 M5 in a scrappy and nicking one of the G-sensitive oil scavenge pumps from one of the heads. Youd could rig it up to pump from the left hand side of the sump into a baffled area around the oil pickup. That way, you could go left all day long

[findlay 0]

G sensitive

 

Cool idea however i feel I may encounter some obstacles...

 

1. The lack on M5s

2. The lack of bent M5s

3. The lack of cheap bits from bent M5s

4. The lack of cheap bits from bent M5s that are in my area

5. It probably requires a tool from BMW that will cost several trillion pounds to get the scavenge pump out...

 

Etc lol

[M3Evo 0]

G sensitive

 

Cool idea however i feel I may encounter some obstacles...

 

1. The lack on M5s

2. The lack of bent M5s

3. The lack of cheap bits from bent M5s

4. The lack of cheap bits from bent M5s that are in my area

5. It probably requires a tool from BMW that will cost several trillion pounds to get the scavenge pump out...

 

Etc lol

Yeah, they have a couple of pumps in each head which come on when cornering above a certain G level to force the oil back into the sump.

 

Do see ya point though

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Chris,

 

Out of interest, what sort of baffles are you using and what improvements did you get from them on track?

 

Can't warrant spending money on an Accusump, just too solve a surge issue that only crops up on certain tracks, esp when decent baffles 'should' dampen it down a bit.