Oil leak from the filter

[brian j 31]

Apologies to those who have seen this on FB, but I am stumped with an oil leak.

 

I have a 91 1.9 GTI with A/C & PAS so it has the oil filter fitted to the oil water heat exchanger on the front the gearbox.

 

I have owned the car on/off for 15 years and it has always had genuine filters (1109AP) and they have never sealed perfectly, they have always had a slight weep from the filter seal no matter how well seated they are.

The car has been stored for 8 years and I am recommissioning it, and the latest filter (a genuine 1109AP), in spite of being visually identical to the last is leaking badly on the filter seal. 

It is definitely the filter seal that is leaking, not anywhere else on the heat exchanger, and it appears that the heat exchanger has two raised lips and a groove where the filter screws on.  The seal is missing either raised lip and sitting in the groove, but it is not thick enough to seal before the filter makes metal to metal contact with the heat exchanger, both the outer rim of the filter on the outer lip, and the centre of the filter on the backplate.

It was suggested I try an E149130 filter instead, which is listed for my car, so I bought one from fish bros,  but this is physically identical to the 1109AP, so has the same issue.

 

I can’t see any issue or damage on the heat exchanger other than minute witness marks from where the filter has touched. (fortunately since the only one I can find for sale is £600 from spoox)

 

My photo hosting fu has completely evaporated while I’ve been away, so please excuse this, but photos can be found here: FB group link

 

Has anyone else with the remote filter setup had the same issue?  Any resolution?  It looks to me like the filter seal could only ever have been marginal, and the newer filters are slightly different in size so it is worse.  

Is there an alternate filter that is a better fit?

 

I am so frustrated with this and I want to get it sorted because its the only thing preventing me from putting it back on the road.

 

 

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

I can't really remember but I think i used to have a small drip from that face for the few months when I had this set up fitted to my GTI.

 

Trying to remember how it's all clamped together before the filter goes on, is there a similar threaded insert that sleeves over the thread on the hose adapter plate through the heat exchanger part?

 

If there is, is it tightened up fully?  I seem to remember my standard socket was only just deep enough to fit the hex on the insert so i wondered if I simply hadn't got it nipped up enough.

 

the ssg asia parts breakdown for this set up is here

 

I seem to remember buying item #13 from that page but it didn't have the bits I was after, the two seals under the pipe unions into the adapter plate (item 10).

 

g.

[petert 550]

Remove the water/oil exchanger temporarily, to help isolate the problem. ie just screw the filter direct to the remote housing. Obviously you’ll need to cap off the water hoses.  

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

The threaded sleeve that attaches the heat exchanger to the filter housing has an external hexagon to tighten it up, I wonder if this is too tall and the filter is bottoming out on the hex before its tight enough to compress the seal properly? Should be possible to work out either by measuring or with a bit of plasticine to check clearance with the filter spun down by hand.

[Gohn 62]

the XUD7TD has same threaded sleeve and filter, and same seal to heat exchanger

don't remember 2 raised rings on heat exchanger mating surface though ?? and can't check until next oil change

i've used a heap of different of filters on mine with changes to the seal ring diameter ID and OD depending on brand

they've all sealed nice with firm hand tightening

put some calipers on your heat exchanger and use the ring measurements to try different brand instead of peug/cit

 

XU9 threaded sleeve should be 81.25mm long

 

can't see your pics could you repost

 

 

 

 

 

[SRDT 146]

81,25mm with the correct exchanger, exchangers on the 205/309/405 are this one or shorter ones. You could also have the correct exchanger and a longer threaded insert from a 2.0 HDI.

[Thijs_Rallye 86 4 Cars]

I usually use the LS867B from Purflux, which were the original filters at the time afaik. The OEM part from back in the day was 1103 89, which is likely revised a few times through the years.

[brian j 31]

Hi All, thanks for your help.

 

I will try again with pics if i can make it work...

 

I think this illustrates the problem best.  Genuine 1109AP filter, making metal to metal contact between the outside of the filter body and the heat exchanger.  There are witness marks on the filter and the heat exchanger to confirm this.

 

The leak is 100% definitely at the filter to heat exchanger interface, the back is dry.

 

Edited February 2 by brian j

[brian j 31]

This image demonstrates the double concentric raised rings the filter has to seal against:

 

The metal edge of the filter is hitting the outer lip before the seal is compressed at all.

 

I compared the 1109AP with an E149130, which is the other filter listed for my setup:

 

In every measurable way it is identical to within a fraction of a mm, so I don't see that this is the issue.

 

I have also removed and measured the central screw fitting, as suggested.  It is 73.44mm long, and has 20mm of protruding thread.  I screwed it into the filter while it was removed, and it took 8.25 turns to touch the centre of the filter, then re-fitted it and it took 7.25 turns to bind, so it is not the centre causing the issue:

 

Basically where I am left is that the filter is just not compatible with the heat exchanger.  The filter either needs to be around 10mm bigger diameter, so the seal hits the outer ridge, or the seal needs to be about twice the thickness so it hits the inner ridge before the rim of the filter makes metal to metal contact.  I can only find one heat exchanger for sale. Spoox want over £600 for it, which isn't going to happen, particularly as the old 1109AP didnt leak like this, and it was never a real issue before (although the filter seal has always been a little tenuous) 

 

Have I got the wrong heat exchanger? If I have, how do I find the correct filter to fit it? Does anyone have a spare they would part with for a sensible sum?

 

I am really open to ideas now, because its such a dumb reason to have it off the road.

Thx

[Gohn 62]

you've basically sorted it yourself

as you say, don't go spending £600, you just need a good seal at that outer ring

everything else is good

what is the diameter of the outer ring ?

get the outer ring dia with your calipers, and find a filter with the rubber seal to fit that

most filters give you an ID and OD for the rubber seal diameter 

park yourself at the filter counter, get one with a flat wide rubber seal with ID and OD goes either side of the outer ring dia

 

 

[brian j 31]

The outer ring is an exact match for the outer lip of the filter.  The diameter of the filter including the lip is 78.17mm, excluding the lip is 75.98mm, that would mean a filter seal with a middle diameter of 77mm would be ideal.

The seal is 6mm wide, so a perfect filter would have an inner seal diameter of 74mm, an outer seal diameter of 80mm, and the filter would have the same M20 central thread and similar length, and have a suitable non return valve.  

 

I have 2 problems with this:

1. I am struggling to find one.  The filters I can find with that seal diameter are all HUGE truck filters which would put a LOT of leverage on the already fragile filter bracket, and are obscure and hard to get with an M20 thread.  (very happy to have suggestions)

2. I feel like the car should be able to run a standard filter, given I have for 8 years in the past, and it is hardly that obscure.  It makes me feel that something, somewhere is wrong and I really don't like that at all.

Edited February 3 by brian j

[Gohn 62]

hmm matching a filter to a heat exchanger or vice versa

the pic of your heat exchanger has the "double concentric raised rings" shown

caliper the outer raised ring only

then get the filter with a suitable rubber seal for that 

(the dia of the filter body is not important)

 

if there's no filters to be found of this size, go the other way

the peugeot shop has about 4 heat exchangers listed 

from 439 to 136 euro, here:

 

https://www.boutique-laventure-association.com/en/33-306?q=Engine+Equipment-Oil+filter+%5C-+Gauge+%5C-+Gas+and+vapor+pipe

[Gohn 62]

found an old pic of my heat exchanger, it has one flat ring (not two like yours which makes sealing more difficult)

 

also serie04 has some even better priced heat exchangers here: 

 

https://www.serie04.com/gb/30677-oil-pump?id_category=30677&n=79

 

but finding what fits is the difficult bit

 

[brian j 31]

Thanks Gohn, I really appreciate the help.  

my biggest objection to this is the part is not damaged, its not worn out, its original to the car, and it has worked fine for 32 years. I don’t get why I have a problem now, and I don’t just want to fire parts at it without understanding.

 

If I do decide to switch it, it is also not easy. The heat exchangers for sale are all different to the one fitted. (Water pipes in the wrong place, significantly different thickness, etc.) 

I am sure one could be made to work.  And I’m happy to sort silicone water hoses etc if I need to, but my biggest issue is that if the cooler is a different thickness, I will need a different central threaded tube length.  The ones I can find are all male threaded both ends and mine is male one and female the other (because it’s remote, not block mounted) so I think I’d need a fitting custom machined to go that route. 
 

l’Aventure Peugeot list the correct part no. at a less ridiculous price, but the photos are of a DW style cooler with the wrong thickness and threaded tube fitting so I am not confident of the fitment even if I swallow the cost. 
https://www.boutique-laventure-association.com/fr/peugeot/205671-kit-echangeur-eau-huile-xu-modine.html

 

the only one I can find that is actually a match is this: 

https://spoox.co.uk/peugeot-205/8245-genuine-oe-brand-new-peugeot-205-gti-oil-cooler-1103e6.html

 

and as you can see it has the same double concentric ring sealing arrangement, so even if I buy a replacement I don’t see how I won’t have exactly the same issue. 

[SRDT 146]

L'Aventure Peugeot is selling the new cooler with the corresponding fitting, you could also buy the fitting alone and get a new cooler elsewhere for a more reasonable price.

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

I think the filter has previously been overtightened probably in an attempt to stop a leak and it’s crushed the sealing surface of the heat exchanger. The double lips as you describe should be a flat sealing area. Thus normally the rubber seal would seal on that and the metal outer would not contact.
I think I’d see if you can buy a used heat exchanger from anyone, one of the various people that break cars may have one? Joe Rowlands, Steve Heath, Mark Spencer.

[brian j 31]

2 hours ago, SRDT said:

L'Aventure Peugeot is selling the new cooler with the corresponding fitting, you could also buy the fitting alone and get a new cooler elsewhere for a more reasonable price.

I also noted that, but the pictured item is all wrong. How reliable are they at providing the right parts? If it is as pictured it won’t work and I imagine returns to France are not that easy.  
 

anyone got any experience in dealing with them? 

[brian j 31]

1 hour ago, Tom Fenton said:

I think the filter has previously been overtightened probably in an attempt to stop a leak and it’s crushed the sealing surface of the heat exchanger. The double lips as you describe should be a flat sealing area. Thus normally the rubber seal would seal on that and the metal outer would not contact.
I think I’d see if you can buy a used heat exchanger from anyone, one of the various people that break cars may have one? Joe Rowlands, Steve Heath, Mark Spencer.

Hi Tom. It would be an amazingly neat bend, but it would also make sense of the bulge by the punched hole at the top. 
 

I’ll put a wanted ad out and see what comes back. 
 

I wonder what would happen if I cleaned it up really well, scuffed and filled the depression with JB weld and sanded it smooth with wet and dry on a piece of glass as a temporary get-on the road bodge while I look for a new one? 

Edited February 4 by brian j

[SRDT 146]

The description in French doesn't say that it's the original part but a "solution" to replace it made out a cooler and it's corresponding fitting.

Peugeot also did this back in the days with updated parts that needed a few extra parts to be fitted on older cars.

They didn't bother translating it in the UK version.

[brian j 31]

1 hour ago, SRDT said:

The description in French doesn't say that it's the original part but a "solution" to replace it made out a cooler and it's corresponding fitting.

Peugeot also did this back in the days with updated parts that needed a few extra parts to be fitted on older cars.

They didn't bother translating it in the UK version.

That makes good sense, and so long as the threaded tube is correct it looks like it would be a good fit, but the threaded tube pictured is not correct, being a male thread on both ends. I don’t know them well enough as a supplier to trust it will all be good. 

[SRDT 146]

I think you also need to remove the steel threaded part in the aluminium housing.

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

Nothing to lose by trying the JB weld idea to be honest. 
I’d have a good look on eBay and see if you can find another heat exchanger that could be made to fit. Lots of them out there that don’t look that different.

E.g 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234938331532?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=yi1ojZncSxy&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=xoKYAtzWSsK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[brian j 31]

I have taken a punt in a 206gti180 heat exchanger on eBay which looks very similar.  I am also tracking down a uk supplier who is listing a clone whose part no. cross references with the correct part. 
 

I’ll keep the group informed, just in case it helps anyone else. 

[welshpug 1,622]

I would agree with Tom, the soft aluminium has been crushed from years of overtightening, not usually an issue as a lot of these Modine type heat exchangers are typically Steel or onto a cast aluminium part, not this particular formed sheet aluminium variant.

[brian j 31]

1 hour ago, welshpug said:

I would agree with Tom, the soft aluminium has been crushed from years of overtightening, not usually an issue as a lot of these Modine type heat exchangers are typically Steel or onto a cast aluminium part, not this particular formed sheet aluminium variant.

Sheet stainless in this case, but it is thin so not impossible.  The 206 part which I’m experimenting with to replace it is alloy so I’ll see what it looks like when it comes.