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Pierre_b

Rebuilding of an XU5J

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Pierre_b
Posted (edited)

Hello,

 

I re started a project that I have left on the side almost 10 years ago, of rebuilding a XU5J. After cleaning and sorting the parts, I begun by wanting to check main bearing clearance. I have bought the first time a lot of parts, but it seems that I have 2 sets of rod bearing, but no main bearing, so the picture are with the old one to see how things fit, and I have a first question. It seems that the shell on the caps do not aligned with the ones the block (for 3 out of 5 at least) :

20210328_074734s.jpg.632d9bc8429d4b7cf03c36b27abff5c5.jpg20210328_074742s.jpg.7e4ea3052ce1bb9f00e1d3b0ba85a24e.jpg20210328_074745s.thumb.jpg.5b1e72244d24b26ad92f4e46476b64e0.jpg

 

 

I didn't try to put the crank yet to see if it fits, I receive this week a set of platisgauge, I'll try it maybe this week end,  but it doesn't seems normal to me, what do you think, and what could be my mistake ?

 

Because I can't find the main bearing in the part I ordered, I want to buy a new set, but on the 2 main website I'm used to order, there is 2 parts number for XU5J, 0113 79 before 1987 and 0113 91 for after 1987. The car is before 1987, but this part is not available, what is the difference between the two, are they compatible?

 

Thank you very much for your help, and sorry for my english

 

Pierre

 

 

Edited by Pierre_b

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welshpug

are you sure the caps are on the correct way?

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Pierre_b
8 minutes ago, welshpug said:

are you sure the caps are on the correct way?

I think so, because the haynes specifies that the small "dart" on the caps should be pointing toward the distribution, and I all put them this way. I am going to check again.

20210328_074710s.jpg.92bc45dd3cdf548d09e697d5b54d3bc8.jpg

Thank you for you answer, and for the website in your signature, really useful, since I can't access service box any more.

2015477576_Capturedecran2021-04-10a15_15_51.thumb.png.4e2e2f5e0be1bb173cf9c8a6f6245f24.png

 

Like I said early in the thread, only the 0113 91 is available, is it the C version, 5 grooved, 5 plain, or is there other différence?

 

Thank you,

 

Pierre

 

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Leslie green

I think the only difference is how many plain or grooved bearings you get as Peugeot had a few variations , as you say you can only buy one set now so it doesn't matter  .As long as the oil holes align it will be fine.

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Leslie green

some info in this thread I found :

 

 

 

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Pierre_b

Hello,

 

I went to the car this morning. The caps are correctly placed, and the bearing localised by the notch in the cap and the block (I hope my english is understandable on this one).

It can be noticed on the N°1, that can't be put the wrong way:

 

20210411_070800s.jpg.5515df09aac9ac76f679a101a4b7ae5c.jpg

 

I put the crank in, and the bearing does not touch the crank, they do not protrude from the caps. The crank spins freely. I tried a plastigage on the number 5, and I have a play of 0,06mm so seems fine :

 

20210411_071616s.jpg.fe5e8a1a56486e76545c0a51bb718ade.jpg

 

Just for sharing the picture, I took out the pistons and rods, to clean the oil I put there before storage on the big ends. The machinist has changed the pistons, and put ARP bolt.

 

20210411_074540s.jpg.4da91219c86522c2500e4aeab14aca2e.jpg

 

Thanks for the answer Leslie Green, I remember something like on the thread you put, about all being compatible, just simplified with time. I am going to order a new set of bearing, and try again. Ideally, I would like 4 plain and 6 grooved, to supply the maximum oil to the rods on the main 2, 3 or 4 (depending on the one that is the best aligned.

 

I have another issue, on one main bearing, the oil hole is not aligned, by more or less 30%. I'll check with the new bearing.

 

20210411_070817s.thumb.jpg.27d76657d788d5a90a043acd71aad315.jpg

 

Pierre

 

 

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Leslie green
1 hour ago, Pierre_b said:

Hello,

 

I went to the car this morning. The caps are correctly placed, and the bearing localised by the notch in the cap and the block (I hope my english is understandable on this one).

It can be noticed on the N°1, that can't be put the wrong way:

 

20210411_070800s.jpg.5515df09aac9ac76f679a101a4b7ae5c.jpg

 

I put the crank in, and the bearing does not touch the crank, they do not protrude from the caps. The crank spins freely. I tried a plastigage on the number 5, and I have a play of 0,06mm so seems fine :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pierre

 

 

Hi Pierre the way that top and bottom bearing shell are not aligned looks wrong to me , you may have been supplied the wrong shells as they should meet exactly inline id have thought.

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Pierre_b
14 minutes ago, Leslie green said:

Hi Pierre the way that top and bottom bearing shell are not aligned looks wrong to me , you may have been supplied the wrong shells as they should meet exactly inline id have thought.

Yes, I agree, but I can't understand why. Those are old one, that i supposed came out of this engine, but like 10 years ago, maybe I have mixed them, I don't know. I am going to try again with the new set of bearing and I let you know, I have found a website that supply the 4 plain/6 grooved in glyco and STD.

 

Pierre

 

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Pierre_b

Hello,

 

I am still waiting for my main bearing to arrived, the supplier switch to Kolbenschmidt, and I probably will have 5 grooved and 5 plain, not what I was hoping, but, I'll do with it

.

In the mean time, I want to buy an oil pump, the one from the engine is scored. Do you know what is the OEM Brand ? I wasn't able to find a stand on the pump.

 

There is a lot of choice :

https://www.auto-doc.fr/pieces-detachees/pompe-a-huile-10592/peugeot/205/205-i-741a-c/2313-1-6-gti

 

I was going for the febi-bilstein, but after thinking about it, I have no idea of the quality of the part of this brand.

 

Thank you in advance for you advice,

 

Pierre

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Gohn

so far, every Febi part I've bought has been good

dont know the OE brand

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Leslie green

Any good brand should be fine (febi bilstein) , few replace the oil pump from rebuilds I've seem it seems but if your is damaged then needs replacing.

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Gohn

most of the SASIC parts I've got have been suspension related, didn't know they did engine bits

and Im pretty sure they were an OE brand, they're good also

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Pierre_b

Hello,

 

After a week of vacation, I have received my new main bearing :

 

20210425_071344_Coussinets.jpg.d07d8efd3ffeeda0f31dd09a4abbe626.jpg

 

so this morning I went to the shed to try them, and the problem is the same :

N°1:

2048745200_20210425_073620palier1.thumb.jpg.786ffc1671dbfac0e455b6b530548213.jpg

 

N°2 : It's the only one correctly aligned.

1866349322_20210425_073615palier2.thumb.jpg.56d1d48afadd5e0ef4a0a564ff43df6e.jpg

N°3 :

80630369_20210425_073610palier3.thumb.jpg.e5a1e2e40575299c90cbd790458eab24.jpg

 

N°4 :

 

111359992_20210425_073604palier4.thumb.jpg.02ed95156149a4b60dd17e70826306a7.jpg

 

N°5 :

618079679_20210425_073556_palier5.thumb.jpg.80487e90c5294b825036bf7efa5b23d2.jpg

 

 

I think that I have the wrong one, one this post https://www.planete-205.com/forum/205-gti-1-9l-am87-en-restauration-remontage-t44868-405.html , there is this picture, making me think that I may have the wrong bearing, the slot of the top and down are shifted on this set, I am a bit lost...shidenkai_o_1crt6htl3cbe1lb0lqgel4sop.JPG.9dbe221704319fb4bd5f78df54d8370c.JPG

 

Another problem is that the oil hole of the number 3 is not aligned :

976691569_20210425_073630palierbouche.thumb.png.99fce91dad9ffe290402f98446f636c7.png

 

Still I plastigaged the bearing, it's around 0,06 mm, and 0,1 mm of lateral, so it's ok.

 

957023707_20210425_075528plasti2et1.jpg.57ecd4d0889a7eeb314029f8b89d80e5.jpg

 

 

1957533024_20210425_075453plasti5et4.jpg.c7402d7dba2e1ab2c861d7e0f25db43b.jpg

 

 

757337302_20210425_081529calage2.jpg.86726f2e16760bc565d964cd66e0d173.jpg

 

1776068999_20210425_081524_calage1.jpg.1682984e0e3a1a2120d42342a0b3ff34.jpg

 

I am a bit lost, and bored, I threw some money away in those bearing and I don't see a solution, so if you have any advice...

 

Pierre

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Leslie green

Well that's very strange is this a very early engine or something ?

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Leslie green
Posted (edited)

Put the plain bearings in the block and the grooved ones in the cap see if it makes any difference Pierre as they appear to be the right size anyway Do the plain ones have oil holes I can't tell from the pics  ?

 

Edited by Leslie green
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Pierre_b
On 4/25/2021 at 7:34 PM, PhilNW said:

Have you tried this website https://catalogs.ssg.asia/peugeot/?lang=en

 

Its similar to servicebox

 

Thank you, I didn't know this website. I was using Welshpug's http://www.miamistu.co.uk/pug/. Not the same list of parts for crank in your website, the before 1986 doesn t exist.

 

On 4/25/2021 at 8:29 PM, Leslie green said:

Well that's very strange is this a very early engine or something ?

Yes, it's one of the first XU5J, I am not sure of the year, I bought the engine as a spare, but my car is from may 1985, so, the correct part number should be 0113 55, but I can't source it.

On 4/25/2021 at 8:39 PM, Leslie green said:

Put the plain bearings in the block and the grooved ones in the cap see if it makes any difference Pierre as they appear to be the right size anyway Do the plain ones have oil holes I can't tell from the pics  ?

 

I will try this, good idea, and yes the plain ones have holes. The car is in a shed few miles away, I won't be able to try before the end of the week.

 

Thank you for your answers,

 

Pierre

 

 

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DamirGTI
18 hours ago, Pierre_b said:

the correct part number should be 0113 55, but I can't source it.

 

 

 

0113 55 Bearings shells seem to be for early 1.6's - 171A , 180A and B2C ... 205 and 305 1.6 from 1982 up to 1985 .. but some part catalogues lists them for later engines as well , both 1.6's and 1.9's .  

 

There's 7 grooved and 3 plain/solid shells in that 0113 55 bearing set .

 

Maxi bore OD. - 63.726mm

Width - 20.29

Thickness - 1.854

 

Available from (all STD 0.00mm) :

 

King Bearings - MB5536AM

Glyco - 6605M

KS (Kolbenschmidt) - 77129608

 

.. some i see on stock some you'll need to order , depending on where you buy parts from . 

 

To me , looks like the locating tangs on the bearing shells which you've bought till now do not match the machined recces for the tangs in the block/caps . Bearing tang spacing is wrong/different .

 

Do you know any history of this engine ? and do you have old bearings shells from that engine/block ?

 

 

If you cannot find suitable shells , grind off the tangs from the shells and center them by hand , as long as the dimension is fine (which you've checked with "plastigauge") and the thrust bearings/measurement on the crank is good it'll be fine ... it's the "crush" what keeps the bearing shells in the bore anyways .
 

 

 

D

 

 

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Leslie green

I found a new set of mains for my own car and the tangs are offset differently on the plain ones than the grooved ones  ,I think this is what the issue is and if you swap them round they will then hopefully be correct offset.

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Pierre_b
On 4/27/2021 at 6:19 PM, DamirGTI said:

 

0113 55 Bearings shells seem to be for early 1.6's - 171A , 180A and B2C ... 205 and 305 1.6 from 1982 up to 1985 .. but some part catalogues lists them for later engines as well , both 1.6's and 1.9's .  

 

There's 7 grooved and 3 plain/solid shells in that 0113 55 bearing set .

 

Maxi bore OD. - 63.726mm

Width - 20.29

Thickness - 1.854

 

Available from (all STD 0.00mm) :

 

King Bearings - MB5536AM

Glyco - 6605M

KS (Kolbenschmidt) - 77129608

 

.. some i see on stock some you'll need to order , depending on where you buy parts from . 

Ok thank you for the refs, I am going to search for them. Where have you found the relation ?

 

On 4/27/2021 at 6:19 PM, DamirGTI said:

 

To me , looks like the locating tangs on the bearing shells which you've bought till now do not match the machined recces for the tangs in the block/caps . Bearing tang spacing is wrong/different .

 

Do you know any history of this engine ? and do you have old bearings shells from that engine/block ?

 

For the history : This engine is from a 105cv, I bought it about 15 years ago. I don't know the year of the car that it was extracted. I have put this engine in the car for a few thousand miles, and I spun a bearing. I put the original engine back in the car. Then a few years after that, I started a rebuild, and stopped for 10 years, so things are a bit blurry. At the same time, I bought a 115cv, to get a good cranckshaft (the one that I am putting in now) and a "big valve" head.

 

So the used bearing that I tried at the beginning of this thread should be from the 105, but it is possible that I made a mixed with those from the 115 (sorry, but after 10 years...).

 

 

On 4/27/2021 at 6:19 PM, DamirGTI said:

 

If you cannot find suitable shells , grind off the tangs from the shells and center them by hand , as long as the dimension is fine (which you've checked with "plastigauge") and the thrust bearings/measurement on the crank is good it'll be fine ... it's the "crush" what keeps the bearing shells in the bore anyways .
 

 

 

D

 

 

That might be the last resort.

On 4/27/2021 at 7:08 PM, Leslie green said:

I found a new set of mains for my own car and the tangs are offset differently on the plain ones than the grooved ones  ,I think this is what the issue is and if you swap them round they will then hopefully be correct offset.

I will try, but I don't want to put it this way, in my mind, the grooved ones have to be in the block, to be filled with this oil from the pump, and feed the crankshaft to the rods.

 

Thanks to both of you for your answers, I'll try the swap and to search in the part of my shed to see if I can confirm what was on that block when it spun the rod bearing.

 

Pierre

 

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Leslie green

The grooved ones don't really have to be in the block every revolution the oil hole in the  crankshaft and block will align letting oil up .

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DamirGTI

Part numbers for the bearing shells above are what came up in the catalogue based on search via OE part number which you've provided : 0113 55 .

 

Possibly the early , up to 1985 year , blocks are machined slightly different .. thus the difference in the bearing shells . 105 CV seems to be early engine , till 1987 they where mostly 180A 1.6 .

In the early years of XU engine production , Peugeot seemed tremendously obsessive compulsive with the bearing shell dimension and variations of the same .

 

If you still have old bearing shells from that block , take a look at the back of the shells .. there should be some numbers stamped indicating manufacturer , code , size/dimension (STD aka 0.00 or oversize 0.10 etc.)

 

 

D

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Pierre_b
On 4/29/2021 at 8:41 PM, Leslie green said:

The grooved ones don't really have to be in the block every revolution the oil hole in the  crankshaft and block will align letting oil up .

 

In my mind, the groove is fill with pressurised oil when it is in the block, so the oil can flow in the crankshaft for half of the revolution. If it's a plain bearing, the oil can only flow when the oil holes are aligned, like you say. I think that with one grooved, one plain on each journal assure that the oil is constantly flowing toward the rods.

 

On 4/29/2021 at 8:51 PM, DamirGTI said:

Part numbers for the bearing shells above are what came up in the catalogue based on search via OE part number which you've provided : 0113 55 .

 

Possibly the early , up to 1985 year , blocks are machined slightly different .. thus the difference in the bearing shells . 105 CV seems to be early engine , till 1987 they where mostly 180A 1.6 .

In the early years of XU engine production , Peugeot seemed tremendously obsessive compulsive with the bearing shell dimension and variations of the same .

 

If you still have old bearing shells from that block , take a look at the back of the shells .. there should be some numbers stamped indicating manufacturer , code , size/dimension (STD aka 0.00 or oversize 0.10 etc.)

 

 

D

 

This morning I went wrenching a bit, but I only have half an hour on the 205 engine. I wasn't able to search for some old bearing from my mess (maybe the bearing at the top of the post are from the 115 engine that I bought for the crank).

 

I tried to mixed the bearing with interesting results :

 

Number 1 :

52143789_20210501_083155palier1plaingrooved.thumb.jpg.068417dd9ed8f65f5ebbf205cc6c3761.jpg400463603_20210501_081701palier1cap1grooved.thumb.jpg.2dd5a5ccfaf94518b75e223ab81c73d5.jpg

 

The best result is with a grooved on the block, and a plain in the cap.

 

Number 2 :

I didnt take a picture, but same as the 1 : a grooved on the block, and a plain in the cap.

 

Number 3 :

395401989_20210501_081432palier3grooved.thumb.jpg.bea325b492a09e4f6c4829439baf4a0d.jpg1988792317_20210501_081500palier3plain.thumb.jpg.9fb229290f9b73449912fd2b46acfbe5.jpg36002089_20210501_081538_palier3capsgrooved.thumb.jpg.27a68b2fe9617cb91f501b2cd4a1fbb8.jpg66010648_20210501_081611palier3capplain.thumb.jpg.7eb963dd88201fffcc8fca9e33a55b60.jpg

1420753643_20210501_082700palier3plain.thumb.jpg.cfb182cf77980a1421803d9d4f32fdb2.jpg

 

The best result is with 2 plain bearing, and the oil hole is aligned. I don't like it for the reason I stated earlier in that post.

 

Number 4 :

407277926_20210501_082446palier4grooved.thumb.jpg.c6748ec3b9b8eac2f131d3183e9332f6.jpg

 

The best result is with 2 grooved bearing

 

Number 5 :

865269094_20210501_082123palier5groovedplain.thumb.jpg.5283a67e0702fa6cc9d4e7fa7bbb78da.jpg122873174_20210501_082257palier5groovedplain2.thumb.jpg.0f27123da8ad337440b74ccb985da696.jpg1009829038_20210501_082229palier5grooved.thumb.jpg.5d9826b0f670328f23598a73bb0be02e.jpg

 

The best result is with 2 grooved bearing, like the number 4.

 

So, to sum up :

1 : 1 plain, 1 groove

2 : 1 plain, 1 groove

3 : 2 plain

4 : 2 grooved

5 : 2 grooved.

 

So I could do with 6 grooved and 4 plain. But I don't want to have 2 plain on number 3, because it's feeding the rod 2 and 3.

- The rod number 1 is fed by 1 plain/1grooved from number 1, and half of the flow from number 2 1plain, 1groove.

- The rod number 2 is fed by half 1 plain/1grooved from number2, and half 2 plain from number 3 (I spuned that rod on that engine)

- The rod number 3 is fed by half 2 grooved from number 4and half 2 plain from number 3.

- The rod number 4 is fed by half 2 grooved from number 4 and 2 grooved from number 5 (it should be the most oiled rod).

 

The rod number 2 seems really badly oiled.

 

I am pretty sure that I am going to modify a grooved one to be use in the block, in main number 3. I am wondering if  I am going to take one grooved for example from the cap number 5, and modify the plain bearing from number 3 to make it fits, or by a new whole set. I am also not really confortable on the way to suppress the locating tang.

 

Thank you for your advice and returns on my thinking,

 

Pierre

 

 

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DamirGTI
Posted (edited)

No that doesn't look good ... new shells , or modify/grind off the tabs and re-locate them by hand .

If the oil holes on the grooved shells don't line up 100% with the block oil feed holes - file them carefully with an small/thin round file till they line up .

 

Grooved shells always go into the block (ie. - up) .. they're grooved to provide oil feed from the block to the crank journals .

 

Plain/solid into the caps (ie. - down) .. plain/solid surface in order to increase load carrying capacity . 

 

 

The locating tabs on the bearing shells are not to secure the shells from moving/wandering off , also they do not secure the shells from spinning round the bore while in use .

There's many engines/blocks of other car brands/makes which do not even have them tabs on the bearings at all .. it's starting to be the "thing of the past" , was meant mainly for the factory facilities for ease of engine/block assembly on the production lines .

 

The "crush" is what keeps the shells securely in the housing bores , as an "press fit" , not the tabs ... need to note , it's very important , when installing the bearing shells in it's housings they must feel springy/snap into place/housing tightly , only then you'll know the "crush" on the shells will be good once the cap is on and torqued up . If they're loose fit in the housing - no good , need to investigate why , make some additional measurements etc.

 

https://www.championbrands.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/TB072015-1.pdf

 

Needles to says , surfaces must be spotlessly clean when doing engine rebuild , lint free cloth and lots and lots of brake cleaner fluid/spray .. also check/measure two or three times the same part to be double sure it's right and ready for the assembly .


 

 

D

 

Edited by DamirGTI
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