'87 1.9 GTI - Questions regarding cooling system, high idle, fuel pump

[Joecar 2 1 Cars]

Hi guys,

the weather is going to be really friendly the next days (finally!!) so I am able to work on the Pug again. 

I've had some issues with starting the car (see here:

 ). These are not quite resolved yet and I am still troubleshooting (the voltage that arrives at the Relay is too low), however the car starts just fine when I hook up the fuel pump to a 12v source. 

I did so today to get some more information on how the car runs etc., since I have not seen it running longer than 10 seconds at a time yet. Here's the findings:

 

1) The coolant temp gauge is stuck at 60°C. 

2) The cooling fan is not moving even after the coolant temp. reaches around 70°C (measured with an infrared thermometer). (I did not dare to run the car any longer/hotter because I really don't want to break anything, see point 3)

3) Car has a slight coolant leak and some minor steam coming from the same side where the leak is located  

4) Car idles at 1100Rpm when cold, goes up to 1500 and got as high as 1900 once it was warm. 

 

I have some questions regarding these findings:

1) Could this be a faulty sensor or should I check something else first? 

2) Could this have something to do with said sensor, or with the thermostat? Heat works, by the way.

3) It's not recommended to run the car until I figure out if the cooling system is working properly, right?

4) That may be the good old SAD (not sure if I got the abbreviation right), right? I plan on cleaning it out and will also seek to check the valve clearances once the car actually runs by itself. 

 

 

I'm having a hard time with the Pug since I am rather inexperienced with cars in general and am very glad that I found this forum. One thing I did actually fix today: The front indicators did not work so I re-did the disintegrated ground connections (after reading some tips from Demir, thanks!). Now the passenger side works, at least! (Driver side might not work because of some bad insulation on some wires which I will re-do when I get around to it). 

 

All best,

Josef

[PhilNW 40]

Starting at Q1 - 

- it is at 60 when as soon as you switch the ignition on?

- does it move while warming up?

- does it go up to 60 then stop even though the temp as measured goes up to 70?

 

Q2 - the lowest rated fan switch is about 85 - 90 some even higher, if the 70 is correct then engine has not got hot enough for it to kick in. 

 

Q3 - where is the actual leak?

 

[Joecar 2 1 Cars]

Hi Phil, thanks for your response.

 

1) Yes, the needle always is at 60 and stays there, does not move at all. 

 

2) Okay; I measured around 80 on the radiator before I shut the car off, though. Will it be a large risk to wait a bit longer until the car gets hotter to see whether the fan kicks in? I'm just anxious that the thermostat is not working properly or something and I'm destroying my engine. (The car has been sitting for the last 10 years and has not been started often, probably the engine hasn't been properly warmed up in that time at all).

 

3) I'll investigate that this weekend; there are (very few) drips once the car is hot coming from the lower right side of the radiator. 

 

 

 - Apart from that, I'll check the fan speed control thing (I don't know the name) that seems to break sometimes in these cars.

 

Cheers,

Josef 

[PhilNW 40]

Taking it in small steps 

 

Q1 Just to be clear - it is at zero with ignition off and goes straight to 60 on the gauge with ignition on, engine cold? 

 

Q2 is it still the cambelt from 10 years ago, if so be wary about the dangers of running the engine with an old belt,

 

Suggest you remove the thermostat off the car and test it ( as per Haynes manual if you have one) to make sure it opens and closes properly

 

Q3 Need to determine if actual leak on radiator, or a damaged hose or the clip that secures it , try slackening the clip it off and retightening.

 

The fan is operated by a simple temperature switch (is it 2 or 3 terminal? ) and resistor,

 

If you are comfortable doing it and with a digital voltmeter, the switch should have a full time +ve  on one of the wires, the other wire(s) feed the fan with power. 

 

Take off the terminal block and (with a suitable size 25A? wire) connect the two terminals together to feed the +ve  to the fan feed to see if the fan runs.

 

 

[Joecar 2 1 Cars]

Alright sorry for the late response, I was quite busy the whole weekend.

 

1) I double-checked; the needle always is at 60 and never moves - even with the ignition off and everything.

 

2) yeah it is; I have a replacement waiting to be installed (I was planning to do that once the engine starts and runs properly but I guess I can also change it in the very near future).

 

I'll take out the thermostat and test it and flush the cooling system while I'm at it and will also check the fan with your method. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll report any findings back. 

 

Thanks again and have a good Sunday,

Josef 

[Joecar 2 1 Cars]

Hey Guys,

Phil sent me a PM and told me to check the coolant temp sensors. 

I had some struggles locating the sensors but I took a few bits apart yesterday to reach the thermostat and I should be able to find the sensors today.

 

I've been working on checking the thermostat and flushing the cooling system and I've got three other questions you might be able to help me with though:

Do you know where the engine block coolant screw is? My Haynes said something about "above the right-hand driveshaft" but I could not find anything and did not want to undo random bolts. 

Also, how do I get the thermostat out? It seems terribly stuck and I'm contemplating on just yanking it out with pliers and getting a new one, which leads me to my third question: 

Which thermostat should I choose? Haynes says it should start to open at 82°C and be fully open at 93°C. I was able to find ones on eBay where it was specified that they'd be open at 83°C and other ones that'd be open at 88°C, however those were the only details. Which one should I go for?

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for all those questions.

[Gohn 62]

 josef,

unfortunately Im not a gen-u-wine 1.9GTi expert (maybe they're all on holiday at present)

so you'll have to make do with some tips from me instead

 

for future reference, schematics for the block, engine, and part numbers are at:

 

https://catalogs.ssg.asia/peugeot/?lang=en

 

- first, and very important. as Phil has already advised, DONT RUN ENGINE WITHOUT NEW TIMING BELT ! AT ALL.

not to check temperature guages or troubleshoot anything else. hope that's what you meant by "very near future". if the belt breaks there will be a whole bunch of other very bad problems to sought out that are easily avoided. its an awkward little job because of the tight space, but dont put it off as its more important that all the other checks you started with

 

- to get to your temp sensors, you'll probably need to take off some of your air intake trunking. your temp sensors should be located at Top Left of the engine, Thermostat at the Front, sensors around the back. there should be two x single spade connectors one red, one black or green, and a third 2pin plug just underneath

 

- your temp guage stuck fast on 60degrees seems strange, not the usual sensor/loom malfunction. also does not sound like an earthing problem. it sounds more like the needle in the dash cluster is actually stuck (I just had the same problem with my fuel guage needle in a car that had been sitting for a bit) . am a bit hesitant to suggest it because its so rare, but your guage does not sound like its having 'normal' problems

 

- good that you've already started checking the earths. checking all of them is good, especially on a car that's been sitting. Front Left and Front Right, there's an earth cluster behind each headlight, bolted to the chassis. also check the main earth. its location varies but is usually bolted to the top of the gearbox, or the Left side of block near the join with the cylinder head. and there's one behind the window washer reservoir, Front Left, bolted to the body. what the hell, do the Left Rear too while your at it (just near LR brake light)

 

- and the 1.9GTi's seem to have a bunch of problems associated with the brown connector plug located somewhere round about the Front Left of engine. (sorry for the dodgy location,) if you can find it, check to see its not cracked and all the wires/connectors are clean and in good nick

 

- thermostat. sounds like you've already taken the top off. Left Front top of engine. once you have the two bolts out and the top off, the thermostat inside should  just lift out. I checked the diagram on the site referenced above, and there's no circlip keeping it in place, but they can get a bit stuck with the gasket etc

 

- that radiator leak just sounds like a small leak from the hose connection, not a hole in the radiator . if they've been sitting for ages, or you take off/ replace hoses they can get small leaks until they bed in with expansion/contraction. make sure the hose clamp is firm but dont tighten it so hard you kill the hose

 

- to drain the coolant system, I've never used a plug on the block. There should be a drain plug/screw at the Bottom Left Rear of the radiator, or you remove one of the bottom hoses at the front right which is a bit messier. the reference to "Above the right hand driveshaft" , I think that's directing you to the coolant flange at the Bottom Right Rear of the block. you could drain the system by taking it off too if you want but its in a more awkward spot, has more connections and gaskets that will need replacing etc, so I'd go with the easiest option instead.

 

- and as your's is an '87 model GTi, the part catalog says its part number

#133837 which opens at 83degrees

OR

#133844 which opens at 89degrees

but I don't know which is correct for yours. your peugeot dealer should be able to confirm with a VIN number.

Phil's suggestion sounds right, your fans are probably working fine but the engine has not got up to operating temperature yet

good luck

 

 

 

[PhilNW 40]

Assuming that you have got the water outlet off (No7 above)  corrosion has probably caused the thermostat (No 8 above) to stick in the housing, may have to destroy it to get it out, it is only made of copper or brass.

 

As advised earlier suggest change belt and water pump, with the thermostat out as well should be able to then assess level of corrosion in the waterways in the top and bottom of the engine

Edited April 2, 2021 by PhilNW

[Joecar 2 1 Cars]

Hey you two, thanks a bunch for your responses. I know how long it takes to type these out and I really, really appreciate it! 

 

Yesterday I removed the thermostat - as Phil suggested it was awfully stuck and I had to yank it out with pliers which left it a bit bent. It worked fine, however. I still ordered a new one because I did not want to risk it failing anytime soon + the gaskets were disintegrated anyways. I went with one that opens at 89 degrees, thanks! (I paid 11€ for my peace of mind, that's worth it imo). 

When flushing the engine (with a garden hose, nothing fancy) all sorts of particles came out and some disgusting gunk seems to be inside the block (at least there's some directly behind the thermostat) so I'll see if I'll get some sort of chemical flush sooner or later. 

I will change timing belt and water pump as the very next thing, then. Thanks for stressing the point, I was planning to do that once I got my starting and cooling issues somewhat sorted but I''ll do these as the very next thing (once the weather gets better again). Water pump is ordered and I'm hoping that it'll arrive sometime next week.

 

I've already checked most earth points (front left/right, re-did those as they were in BAD shape, the one near the cylinder-shaped thing that's part of the distributor [sorry, don't know the correct term], gearbox, rear left). I already fixed the front passenger-side indicators that way. I did not know about the one behind the washer reservoir and will check that one, though. 

Thanks also for the other suggestions - I'll just go through everything one after one, I'll keep you updated when there are findings :). 

 

Thanks again, all best and have a nice easter weekend,

Josef