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rikky

Subframe + Wishbone Bolts - shank or no shank?

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rikky

Subframe bolts for a GTI - I notice the "genuine" ones Spoox sell seem fully threaded, but OEM old ones are part-shanked. Finding the correct shank bolts aftermarket is impossible, and leaves either too short a shank, or too little thread. Anyone just using the fully threaded ones?  Is this the new revised part?

(Also trying to decipher the washer positioning from Servicebox. I've made a diagram that took me way too long and unsure why, but maybe this will help others. Hopefully it's right. Looks like you have 2x washers on the rear bolts, different sizes, to spread load, before it goes through the subframe.)

Same applies to wishbone M10 front and M12 rear bolts too actually. You can't get bolts with the correct shanks unless you buy larger and chop them down, even then they aren't perfect.

Does it matter that much if I'm using 10.9 grade high tensile stuff? I realise the shank stops the shearing on the thread so curious if I'm over-worrying.

 

Please send help

 

 

(Edit by admin, diagram removed by request of OP, amended diagram to follow in thread below. TF 11/12/20)

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rikky

Looking around, someone's saying they are fully threaded on the front but I see nothing to suggest this? Anyone have a clue? 

Looks like the smaller front one (says 50mm, although my OEM one is 55mm..) (old no 6921C2, then 691876) uses 692191 now, which is fully threaded

 

Rear looks to be the part-shanked 350277 60mm one still.

Edited by rikky

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welshpug

they should be bolts not screws, regardless of what is supplied, washers go either side, there is no point to double them up on one side.

 

unless you are missing bolts I'd just get fresh nylocs.

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welshpug

oh wait, subframe to body?

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rikky
4 minutes ago, welshpug said:

oh wait, subframe to body?

Yes subframe to body. I didn't say screws :lol:  I'm just on about the 6x (4x long, 2x short) bolts joining the subframe to body.

 

Just spent ages typing a message to you, only for it to reject it. Wish it'd say that when you start typing it :angry:

 

My photo (for the subframe bolts) looks right from a 'never touched before' car, but the revised 2x front bolts are fully threaded now. Also the lengths of my bolts are 55mm front, 60mm rear. Parts catalogues say different.

 

I'm also on the hunt to find wishbone-to-subframe M10/M12 bolts and again struggling with the shank being a bespoke length on the Pug OEM bolts and nothing off the shelf is 'perfect'. I could get it "nearly there" but unsure if it'll make any difference.

Edited by rikky

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Myles

Buy the correct ones from Peugeot anything else is s*ite especially for the wishbone bolts

.

you could bolt anything together but it’s best to do it right 

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rikky

I’ve already sorted them now. They should be here Friday.
 

Using Peugeot for them isn’t the best and most cost effective option, they’re extremely overpriced and you can get the perfect suitable replacements elsewhere if you do proper measuring of clearances and what’s required. Peugeot did away with the shank on one bolt and just use a normal full threaded bolt now and have done for years it seems, so you can literally get that grade/matching bolt in a million places.

 

They’re all ordered anyway, in the high tensile 10.9 grade, proper shanks etc and washers/nylocs. Took me a few hours looking around but I’ll see how they fair up and report back.

 

:) 

 

 

Edited by rikky

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Ozymandis
17 hours ago, Myles said:

Buy the correct ones from Peugeot anything else is s*ite especially for the wishbone bolts

.

Nonsense, the "bolts" in genuine wishbone bush kits are fully threaded sets and not even plated, they go in the bin every time. I use hex head 8.8 plated bolts from a local fastener shop for wishbones. The same for the ball joint pinch bolts. Minor differences are of no consequence.

 

As to subframe ones i have a selection of good used ones from all the scrappers i have killed. I`d just find the grade and get a suitable replacement from the fastener shop.

 

I seem to remember the first washer under the sub frame bolt heads is a sprung one and the second a large flat washer, nothing fancy about them either.

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rikky

Only thing I'd say is: OEM subframe bolts are 10.9 grade, and fully threaded all along is obviously weaker than shanked. That was the basis for my replacements, so I've got some due tomorrow which I'll compare.

Subframe wise I'm going to just use the 21.3mm washer on it's own I think, can't see it making much difference. 

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Type-R

There's nothing special about the original subframe bolts and it would be better to have a locating fit setup anyway.

The holes are about 15mm with an M10 bolt!

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Tom Fenton

As Jay says the subframe bolts have a Bellville type sprung washer and then a larger load spreading washer on from the factory. Not sure why you'd change from what the factory did.

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rikky

The original fittings I took off mine are what I based my diagram off, (although the 2x washers are in the wrong place!) and the first washer on the 4x rear bolts, is a 1mm thick crinkle style washer (so yes, like concave almost), but is very thin. I'm on the hunt for some anyway so when I get some tomorrow I've hopefully got them all like for like.

The main thread reason was for the shank queries, because it seems like Peugeot had shanks on a lot of old OEM fittings, and then further down the line did away with them and just use thread, probably for production cost reason? However I'm trying to get the shanks as close to/same as original so they're stronger than the normal threaded. Probably a bit overkill but better I think.

 

Thank you all for the replies, think it's covered!

Edited by rikky

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rikky

I've revised the diagram to show the proper washer fitments and sizes, hopefully this makes sense to others following it now. This is a side view of how the bolts pass through the subframe into the body.

The M10 (highlighted red) washers are Form C washers, with a thicker outside diameter than normal washers. They are M10 with an outside diameter of 24mm.

The M10 (highlighted blue) washers are smaller outer diameter (approx 21.3mm) Crinkle/Belleville style arched washers, to help prevent loosening under vibration. 

Original bolts are 10.9 grade for the 6x subframe bolts, visible on the end of the bolt if you clean it up, unlike a lot of other 8.8 grade suspension bolts.

Note: Peugeot's diagrams show an M10 washer before and after the subframe on the front x2 bolts (on my diagram), but people have reported not seeing the one above the subframe on their cars.

 

diagram.thumb.png.1ee13d9d410f26df970fcded6f9202f5.png

 

 

Edited by rikky

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Leslie green

Interesting I'm sure I was missing 1 bolt but car has been in bits a long time now 

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Myles
On 12/10/2020 at 4:21 PM, Ozymandis said:

Nonsense, the "bolts" in genuine wishbone bush kits are fully threaded sets and not even plated, they go in the bin every time. I use hex head 8.8 plated bolts from a local fastener shop for wishbones. The same for the ball joint pinch bolts. Minor differences are of no consequence.

 

As to subframe ones i have a selection of good used ones from all the scrappers i have killed. I`d just find the grade and get a suitable replacement from the fastener shop.

 

I seem to remember the first washer under the sub frame bolt heads is a sprung one and the second a large flat washer, nothing fancy about them either.

You can do what you like pal but don’t nonsense mine - genuine bolts are shanked from from my Peugeot dealer, correct length diameter and strength.

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rikky
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Myles said:

You can do what you like pal but don’t nonsense mine - genuine bolts are shanked from from my Peugeot dealer, correct length diameter and strength.

Not anymore, they’re fully threaded. Peugeot have done away with the original shanked style and just go fully threaded now in the replacement parts.

 

This is the same on a lot of other suspension and shanked bolts/screws in the range.

 

To do this they must do conduct some tests on stress and strength surely. I’m keeping shanked style on mine as they’ll be stronger than threaded, but they don’t always supply them shanked anymore.

Edited by rikky

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opticaltrigger
Posted (edited)

Hmmm,,,,,,

 

Perhaps the OEM engineers were less concerned with fastner shanks, and more concerned with the required clamp load that they were looking for.

 

Just a thought..........

 

All the best,

O.T.

Edited by opticaltrigger
  • Like 3

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Thijs_Rallye

The last original PSA rebuilt kit* I bought at the dealer were without shanked bolts. This was around 2010. (* all nuts, bolts and bushes for both wishbones)

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