Pulling left and right, depending on the load

[duurtlang 8 1 Cars]

I am not sure if this is a suspension problem or a gearbox/driveshaft issue, but I had to post it somewhere. It is mostly about diagnosing a problem.

 

Since my gearbox change (BE3R from a Xantia from 1999) and after alignment my 205 is driving straight without hands on the steering wheel... provided there is no load change. However, if you release the throttle suddenly, it pulls to the left. Press the accelerator pedal again and it pulls briefly to the right. So when the load changes. And not with extreme load changes; when I switch off my cruise control it pulls to the left (briefly), this is not standard torque steer. This is especially noticable at motorway speeds. It is not difficult to compensate, but it is very annoying and I think it is a risk to let my girlfriend drive the car now.

Background info: my 205 is like new in terms of suspension. New shock absorbers/springs/rubbers/wear parts, rebuilt rear axle, .... With the 'new' transmission a (used) CV joint from a ZX was mounted on 1 of the 205 drive shafts, because of the BE3R transmission (XU10j2TE engine). No play noticeable on the drive shafts, no difference in length with the original.

 

My question would be: Any idea what the problem could be here?

 

Secondary issue, which seems too basic to start a second topic for: The speedometer has recently stopped working. Coincidentally (?) about 200 km after changing the gearbox. From the engine room the speedometer cable seems to be connected on both sides, but I can't see it without putting on a lift which I would have to rent. This sensor thing you place on the transmission (not sure about the English name) where you plug the speedometer cable into is brand new. My estimation: the speedometer cable is probably 33 years old and could be defective.

 

Now my second question: which cable should I get? My CTI is from 1987 and has the old dashboard. LHD. The 6123.C4 (890 mm) is from 'model' 1988, the 6123.64 (970 mm) for the older 205s (with BE1, BE3, automatic or MA box, not for the XY engines). Does this, apart from the length, make any difference in terms of fit? Both are still available new.

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

Balljoint wear, hub clamp oval or stretched, or wishbone bushes worn out/sloppy.

[jackherer 543]

As Tom says, that's what 205s drive like when there are problems with the wishbones.

 

Did you torque the wishbone bushes with the car on the ground? If you tighten them with the car lifted up they fail very fast. And did you torque the balljoint clamp bolts accurately? If you overtightened them that will have damaged the hub carrier clamp.

 

Did you say you have cruise control in a Peugeot 205?

[duurtlang 8 1 Cars]

8 hours ago, jackherer said:

As Tom says, that's what 205s drive like when there are problems with the wishbones.

 

Did you torque the wishbone bushes with the car on the ground? If you tighten them with the car lifted up they fail very fast. And did you torque the balljoint clamp bolts accurately? If you overtightened them that will have damaged the hub carrier clamp.

 

Did you say you have cruise control in a Peugeot 205?

Thank you both, I will re-do this and check for damage to the parts Tom and you mentioned. The wishbones bushes have been torqued with the car on the ground en and the balljoint clamp bolts have been torqued by hand, but I cannot be sure everything is healthy without checking it again.

 

And yes, cruise control. I used an aftermarket Waeco Magicspeed MS-50 kit combined with a CC handle from a random 90s PSA car. A Citroen Evasion (Synergie in UK) to be more accurate. Works fine and does not look as out of place as aftermarket CC buttons/handles. I occasionally drive long distances on the German Autobahn, for example 800 km last Sunday. I am Dutch but live/work close to the Alps. Set the cruise at 150 or so, roof open (it's a CTI, but with GTI suspension) and motorcycle earplugs in. It's great.

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by duurtlang

[jackherer 543]

Very neat, looks OE. I recognise the stalk from Xantias and 406s.

[boldy205 74]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:11 AM, duurtlang said:

Thank you both, I will re-do this and check for damage to the parts Tom and you mentioned. The wishbones bushes have been torqued with the car on the ground en and the balljoint clamp bolts have been torqued by hand, but I cannot be sure everything is healthy without checking it again.

 

And yes, cruise control. I used an aftermarket Waeco Magicspeed MS-50 kit combined with a CC handle from a random 90s PSA car. A Citroen Evasion (Synergie in UK) to be more accurate. Works fine and does not look as out of place as aftermarket CC buttons/handles. I occasionally drive long distances on the German Autobahn, for example 800 km last Sunday. I am Dutch but live/work close to the Alps. Set the cruise at 150 or so, roof open (it's a CTI, but with GTI suspension) and motorcycle earplugs in. It's great.

 

That cruise control is brilliant! Good work!

[duurtlang 8 1 Cars]

I am replying to this again, as I still have not been able to fix my problem. It still pulls to a side based on motor load.

 

Initial situation: it did not pull to a side.

Later situation: Changed transmission and a drive shaft (no play), also changed the rear axle with a rebuilt one. Problem started. See first post.

 

Problem: pulls to a side based on a load change on the engine. When I let go of the gas, it pulls left. When I give it some gas again, I again have to correct with the steering wheel as it pulls right. It's not about acceleration (torque steer), as when I#m driving in a steady pace and let go of the gas, I also need to correct my direction. When you keep the engine load constant, you can let go of the wheel and it moves in a straight line. 

 

What have I done:

• Wishbones were new and have no play.
• The wishbones bushes have been torqued with the car on the ground
• it has been aligned
• The balljoint clamp bolts have been torqued by hand
• After the topic above (late spring 2020) I changed the hub carriers

Nothing helped. In my desperation I even changed the motor mounts with firmer ones (big mistake), which also did not help.

 

The mechanic friend of mine who does more work on the car than I do suggested, due to a lack of other options, that it might be related to the rear axle. I am sceptical about this idea though.

 

So what is next? I am out of ideas. Does anyone have a suggestion?

[welshpug 1,621]

even if the parts are new check them for play, also check the balljoint holes like Tom mentioned, they may well clamp ok but still allow the pin to move around allowing the toe to change.

 

check the subframe mounting bolts, steering rack bolts, play in the rack joints could also cause this but the symptoms do point towards the bushes or balljoints on the front end.

[Ozymandis 96]

I know its all been said, sounds like too soft wishbone bushes squirming around or  oval balljoint pin holes to me.

 

I dont trust any new wishbones now and always change the rubber bushes for old stock Peugeot supplied ones which I am hoarding.

[Gohn 62]

On 5/7/2020 at 6:53 AM, jackherer said:

Did you torque the wishbone bushes with the car on the ground?

So I should have been torqueing my bolts weight on !?

Have not done that in the past, better remedy that.

I can get to the front  wishbone pivot bolt and the balljoint but not the rear wishbone pivot bolt. (probably why I assumed it was ok to torque with the weight off)

 

is there a recommended method for getting to the rear wishbone pivot bolt ?  (I dont have a pit, hoist or ramps)

[Ozymandis 96]

Re do them, jack it up get a couple of old wheels or suchlike and lower the front wheels onto them and it is then possible to grovel about and do it. I have used kerb stones,  stone lintels, slices of tree trunks and timber baulks  to do the same.

 

 

Suspension metalastic bushes should be tightened up in their natural resting place, or the pre loading wears them out sharpish like and can give odd handling foibles.

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

Jack the rear up and tug the rear wheels about to check for play in the rear beam. 

[Gohn 62]

13 hours ago, Ozymandis said:

get a couple of old wheels or suchlike and lower the front wheels onto them and it is then possible to grovel

thanks, simple solution.   'grovel' it is then..

[Gohn 62]

well, jacked up and grovelled about a good amount

but the rear wishbone pivot nuts cannot be properly accessed to allow proper torqueing to 78Nm

its not the ground clearance, the problem is the ARB is in the way

can get to it with a spanner or a socket

but thats just doing it by feel/guessing,

which somewhat defeats the purpose of torqueing up with weight on

can't get the torque wrench near it

 

the front pivot bolt is recommended to be 35Nm, the rear 78Nm - lot of difference

 

here's a borrowed pic from jonmurgie in the tech section showing the ARB crowding the pivot nut

 

checked that the bolts are head in, nuts out as recommended in part catalog:

 

Tried unbolting the droplinks and swinging the ARB up/down. Makes no difference

Also tried access from the top, down thru the engine bay. Nup

Tried with sockets, ratchet spanners, ring spanners, crow feet socket . no good

 

 

Does everyone just tighten this one on feel ?

 

[Ozymandis 96]

I have never used a torque wrench to tighten up the suspension, It never occured to me thats what you want to do.

 

[Ozymandis 96]

8 hours ago, Tom Fenton said:

Jack the rear up and tug the rear wheels about to check for play in the rear beam. 

 look at the rear axle rear mountings, they delaminate and cause odd lurches.

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

I started having the same issue after I changed to summer wheels. I thought I had put wrong rotation direction but nope, they are all good. 

 

I'll still do some diagnosing and get back with results. 

[Gohn 62]

1 hour ago, Ozymandis said:

It never occured to me thats what you want to do

no worries, did both cars - just had to do the rear pivot bolt on TD by feel. gave it some welly

 

1 hour ago, Atlaskrukvaxt said:

changed to summer whee

what's a "summer" wheel. are they the nice ones - the winter ones cop all the salt ?

[Ozymandis 96]

56 minutes ago, Gohn said:

what's a "summer" wheel. are they the nice ones - the winter ones cop all the salt ?

Exactly. I take it they dont salt your roads in winter?

 

I thought this might interest You Andrew, I bought a cheap fleabay no name  alloy radiator ages ago and now getting around to fitting it to a car ( its consistently above freezing  and a bit nicer to roll about on the rain soaked concrete).  Firstly the threaded bosses that are welded to the end tanks, are the worst turned pieces of ali bar i have ever seen. The threads are not at 90 degrees to the faces there is no chance of using it without filing a large amount off one side of the boss to try and level things up, maybe 3mm i had to file on the piss to get plug and thermoswitch to go in straight. I hope you can see it in the photo.

[Ozymandis 96]

Also the rads 8mm too short and best of all the bottom mount bobbins are welded on in the wrong place

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

2 hours ago, Gohn said:

what's a "summer" wheel. are they the nice ones - the winter ones cop all the salt ?

Sorry, I meant winter tires. They have deeper pattern and steel studs for grip on ice. My summer ones are also quite a bit wider. 

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

I've done some more testing and all the normal suspects have been ruled out in my case. The only thing I can think of now is that the two front wheels have swapped side since last autumn They don't have a dedicated rotational direction, only an outside and an inside. I will swap them around tomorrow and see if it helps. Might be worth doing in your case as well. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Atlaskrukvaxt

[DamirGTI 323]

On 4/2/2021 at 6:56 PM, duurtlang said:

, also changed the rear axle with a rebuilt one.

Rebuilt with what and by who ?

 

Might be one of the new Chinese beams supplied all around the EU lately , or made/rebuilt using Chinese beam parts ..

 

If it's rebuilt with proper OE parts , maybe someone put different arms on , or by mistake mixed them say fitted one GTi and another base model arm or similar .. or even one arm might've been bent if the source was sideswipe collision damaged car .

 

Got the print out from the wheel alignment ?

 

D

 

[Gohn 62]

16 hours ago, Ozymandis said:

consistently above freezing

luxury !

bit hard to see whats wrong with that radiator from the pics, but it looks generally 'orff'. looks like youre trying to make a square peg fit a round hole. think I would have just swore much and binned it - don't have a welder, all lo-tech no-salt here. the only salt about's in the pantry or in the bath-like ocean

 

15 hours ago, Atlaskrukvaxt said:

I meant winter tires

really ! I was gunna make a joke about snow spikes but deleted it. must cost a bit, great with a limited slip diff in the snow !

 

anyway, back on topic, did rob discover the original tracking problem ? balljoint/wishbone wear suggested sounded most likely