Main bearing orientation - Check

[Philpooma 30]

I just need someone in the know to confirm what I’m doing before I go ahead and fit the main bearings.

when I disassembled the main bearings, all the upper bearings were grooved and the lower bearings were plain.

The image below was taken after the crank was lifted out.

The missing beating came out with the crank.

 

However reading the Haynes manual it describes the plain and grooved bearings being placed in different positions (upper and lower).

Do I just ignore the Haynes manual and place the grooved bearings all in the upper position?

 

 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

As shown in your photograph, they are correct. The main bearing cap takes most of the bearing load and thus needs the even thin oil film. The upper half shell has a hole in it that coincides with the feed from the main oil gallery . I think the groove also helps oil supply to the big end bearings via the feed hole in the main bearing journal.Anyway, theory aside, grooved shell in the upper ( block) half.

[Philpooma 30]

45 minutes ago, Andy said:

As shown in your photograph, they are correct. The main bearing cap takes most of the bearing load and thus needs the even thin oil film. The upper half shell has a hole in it that coincides with the feed from the main oil gallery . I think the groove also helps oil supply to the big end bearings via the feed hole in the main bearing journal.Anyway, theory aside, grooved shell in the upper ( block) half.

Cheers Andy, I know my question sounds like an obvious one, its just when manual says something different, the OCD in me needs to double check.

[welshpug 1,621]

the types of bearings used and offered were changed after the first few years of production which is why there is a variance in information.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

24 minutes ago, Philpooma said:

Cheers Andy, I know my question sounds like an obvious one, its just when manual says something different, the OCD in me needs to double check.

Much,much better to check before you bolt everything up rather than plough ahead and discover later any mistake .

[Leslie green 81]

so it doesn't matter then as long as the oil hole lines up the the drilling below it, I know the guy I sent my crank to check failed to order new bearings as he wasn't sure which to get  either all plain or half grooved.

[Philpooma 30]

Well the crank Is now in.

I have not fully torqued it up as ai need to measure end float and cannot seem to do so with feeler gauges, fingers crossed that its not that I have too little end float to be able to measure with feeler gauges.
I dont want to have to remove the crankshaft end cap with those bloody hockey stick seals as they were fiddly to get in.

I’m going to borrow a gauge tool off a friend tomorrow.

 

I bought a cheap piston compression tool off EBay and its either rubbish or I’m not using it correctly.

When I compress the piston and try to insert it into the cylinder, where the compressor “double overlaps” it creates a high spot which stops the tool inserting into the cylinder.

Maybe the tool is just too big.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, inserting pistons has always looked like such an easy job.

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

The tool doesn’t go into the cylinder. It butts tightly against the top and you slide the piston and rings from the tool into the bore.

[JeffR 51]

Throw the cheap compression tool in the bin and get one of these-

 

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/au/arp-tapered-piston-ring-compressor-240809

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

I agree Jeff that type are superior, but for the guy who will probably never use it again, the cheap shim type do the job ok.

For the man with a lathe an easy thing to make out of a scrap liner.

 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

11 hours ago, Philpooma said:

Well the crank Is now in.

I have not fully torqued it up as ai need to measure end float and cannot seem to do so with feeler gauges, fingers crossed that its not that I have too little end float to be able to measure with feeler gauges.
I dont want to have to remove the crankshaft end cap with those bloody hockey stick seals as they were fiddly to get in.

I’m going to borrow a gauge tool off a friend tomorrow.

 

I bought a cheap piston compression tool off EBay and its either rubbish or I’m not using it correctly.

When I compress the piston and try to insert it into the cylinder, where the compressor “double overlaps” it creates a high spot which stops the tool inserting into the cylinder.

Maybe the tool is just too big.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, inserting pistons has always looked like such an easy job.

Morning,

 endfloat. It is easier to do this with the crank installed but not with the hickey stick seals . Then taking the crank out again if the endfloat is not correct is very easy.The endfloat should be between 0.07 and 0.27mm . I err towards the lower end of that value. You should be able to get a suitable sized feeler gauge  between the thrust washer half in the crankcase and the face of the crank on no2 journal . You should also be able to detect a small amount of endfloat on the crank. To make it easier , push or lightly tap the flywheel end of the crank so that it is sent towards the timing gear end. That will give you the best chance of measuring the end float on the timing side face of no2 journal . If you still cannot get any feeler gauge in at all, I am afraid that the the crank needs to come out . Shame as you will have sealed your hockey sticks in with a generous coat of Threebond 1211 or something similar . Those seals are available separately from Peugeot if needed. 
Piston insertion ( so to speak) . Assumimg that you have your rings gapped correctly and installled on the piston in the correct order, the correct way up and with the gaps evenly spaced around the piston circumference , first, oil piston ring area liberally. Then, loosely position your compressor around the piston , making sure it is clamping squarely. Whilst it is still not fully tightened, more oil on the top edges of the piston so that it runs down into the ring land area. Then tighten fully . Now, with the liner supported so that the rod can protrude through the bottom of it without being impeded , place the skirt of the piston into the liner . The bottom edge of the compressor will now rest on the upper face of the liner . Using the wooden shaft of a hammer , gently tap the edges of the compressor so that it sits squarely onto the liner top. When you are sure it is square and that the compressor is tight, gently tap the top of the piston the hammer shaft .It should start to move downwards into the liner bore . Keep going but do not use too much force. You will feel when the bottom ring engages with the liner bore .Gently continue the downward tapping and all should be well. If it starts to go ‘solid’ stop, as it means that a ring is fouling on the top of the liner . 
These compressors are not great . Jeff is right. A taper tool is 100 times better but at £70 quite a lot for a one off job. Mind you, if you ruin a set of rings , the taper tool would have been a good buy .

Sorry I do not have photographs of this process, I only recorded the outcome in my build thread. 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Found one 

[JeffR 51]

I've found rather than using feeler gauges to measure endfloat use a dial gauge against either end of the crank.

Once you've pushed the crank against the thrust washers, zero the dial gauge and you should be able to push or very lightly tap the crank away from the thrust washers and get an accurate reading of the clearance.

 

 

[Philpooma 30]

21 hours ago, Tom Fenton said:

The tool doesn’t go into the cylinder. It butts tightly against the top and you slide the piston and rings from the tool into the bore.

Its a steep learning curve Tom, but I’m slowly getting there .

Things that are not obvious at the time are embarrassing later on, when you suddenly see how obvious it was. Like they say, its easy when you know the answer. Thanks for the response re the compression tool.

I realised my mistake when I looked at it again.

the tool has indents in the bottom of the skirt, I assumed it was transport damage and used the other end, its now clear that indents are to locate the tool at the top of the cylinder.

This worked well and each piston went straight in with no fuss.

 

[Philpooma 30]

20 hours ago, JeffR said:

Throw the cheap compression tool in the bin and get one of these-

 

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/au/arp-tapered-piston-ring-compressor-240809

Thanks Jeff.

If I do anymore engine building, I’ll invest in one.

Right tool for the job eh.

[Philpooma 30]

10 hours ago, Andy said:

Morning,

 endfloat. It is easier to do this with the crank installed but not with the hickey stick seals . Then taking the crank out again if the endfloat is not correct is very easy.The endfloat should be between 0.07 and 0.27mm . I err towards the lower end of that value. You should be able to get a suitable sized feeler gauge  between the thrust washer half in the crankcase and the face of the crank on no2 journal . You should also be able to detect a small amount of endfloat on the crank. To make it easier , push or lightly tap the flywheel end of the crank so that it is sent towards the timing gear end. That will give you the best chance of measuring the end float on the timing side face of no2 journal . If you still cannot get any feeler gauge in at all, I am afraid that the the crank needs to come out . Shame as you will have sealed your hockey sticks in with a generous coat of Threebond 1211 or something similar . Those seals are available separately from Peugeot if needed. 
Piston insertion ( so to speak) . Assumimg that you have your rings gapped correctly and installled on the piston in the correct order, the correct way up and with the gaps evenly spaced around the piston circumference , first, oil piston ring area liberally. Then, loosely position your compressor around the piston , making sure it is clamping squarely. Whilst it is still not fully tightened, more oil on the top edges of the piston so that it runs down into the ring land area. Then tighten fully . Now, with the liner supported so that the rod can protrude through the bottom of it without being impeded , place the skirt of the piston into the liner . The bottom edge of the compressor will now rest on the upper face of the liner . Using the wooden shaft of a hammer , gently tap the edges of the compressor so that it sits squarely onto the liner top. When you are sure it is square and that the compressor is tight, gently tap the top of the piston the hammer shaft .It should start to move downwards into the liner bore . Keep going but do not use too much force. You will feel when the bottom ring engages with the liner bore .Gently continue the downward tapping and all should be well. If it starts to go ‘solid’ stop, as it means that a ring is fouling on the top of the liner . 
These compressors are not great . Jeff is right. A taper tool is 100 times better but at £70 quite a lot for a one off job. Mind you, if you ruin a set of rings , the taper tool would have been a good buy .

Sorry I do not have photographs of this process, I only recorded the outcome in my build thread. 

Hey Andy, thanks very much for the comprehensive reply. I did try to reply to you this morning, but I was struggling to get onto the site for some reason.

I ended up borrowing a clock gauge off a friend of my Dads as I wanted to be sure that the end float was OK. As you suggested, it would not have been easy taking No.1 cap off, especially after getting the seals in OK.

Luckily, the end float was bang on....Phew.

The Haynes manual is quite misleading as in one section it says bolt the mains down and check end float, in another section it says place the crank on and check end float.

I’ll know for next time thats for sure.

 

You may have seen my reply to Tom, I managed to sort out the Piston ring compression tool and the pistons are all in place first time.

[Philpooma 30]

9 hours ago, JeffR said:

I've found rather than using feeler gauges to measure endfloat use a dial gauge against either end of the crank.

Once you've pushed the crank against the thrust washers, zero the dial gauge and you should be able to push or very lightly tap the crank away from the thrust washers and get an accurate reading of the clearance.

 

 

Yes Jeff, I have to agree, works a real treat 

I have always disliked using feeler gauges when it comes to small measurements.

[jackherer 543]

8 minutes ago, Philpooma said:

I was struggling to get onto the site for some reason.

It's not just you, it looks like the server was down for some reason, possibly DNS related.

[Philpooma 30]

Unfortunately the thread does not end there.

After fitting the pistons into the new liners, I went to fit the new Big end shells so I could install the pistons and liners and suddenly realised that the replacement pistons that I had bought had different big end bearing sizes.......

 

Neither myself or the company who checked the pistons were in good condition noticed this issue.

After carefully getting everything right with the pistons, it looks like they are going to have to be removed from the liners, stripped and replaced with another set.

You can see the size difference in the image below. I didn't realise that there were different sizes.

 

After this I set about measuring my old pistons. The reason that I wasn't using them is that the engineering company highlighted that there was excessive wear in the top compression ring on one of the pistons, which wouldn't be worth putting in a fully rebuilt engine from a longevity point of view.

The measurements that I made are shown below.

As I was told, No.2 Piston is right at the top tolerance, as detailed on the ring suppliers instruction sheet, which is also shown in the image.

Currently looking at my options.......What a shame as all was going so well.

[Leslie green 81]

Are these pistons secondhand I take it as new pistons don't  come with rods ,what size engine is it as I think 1.6 and 1.9 big end journals are different size possibly different actual rod length too but can't be sure.  Id measure the ring gap yourself and at the end of the day if its in spec its in spec , quite possibly  been that way from the day it left Peugeot .

Edited January 2, 2020 by Leslie green

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

Small big end journals are 1.6 gti rods.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

This must be disappointing for you. They cannot be the rods that came out of your engine unless one of your big end journals has been ground to 1.6 size, so it must be a question to the machine shop that pressed the pistons back onto the rods . Very frustrating. 

[Philpooma 30]

17 hours ago, Leslie green said:

Are these pistons secondhand I take it as new pistons don't  come with rods ,what size engine is it as I think 1.6 and 1.9 big end journals are different size possibly different actual rod length too but can't be sure.  Id measure the ring gap yourself and at the end of the day if its in spec its in spec , quite possibly  been that way from the day it left Peugeot .

The pistons that I have detailed the measurements of are the original pistons from the car Leslie.

The measurements are the ring gap for these pistons and its the No.2 piston that has a slightly larger gap....Just in tolerance.

Not sure if people measure this as standard when doing a rebuild, or if the engineering shop are just being very picky.

I certainly don't want to put anything back in the engine which will affect its output or longevity in a negative way.

 

The pistons that have the larger big ends are a set that I bought second hand, not realising that they were different. 

[Philpooma 30]

17 hours ago, Tom Fenton said:

Small big end journals are 1.6 gti rods.

Cheers Tom, I now know going forwards that there is a difference in the con rods. My engine is a 1.6 Gti 

[Philpooma 30]

6 hours ago, Andy said:

This must be disappointing for you. They cannot be the rods that came out of your engine unless one of your big end journals has been ground to 1.6 size, so it must be a question to the machine shop that pressed the pistons back onto the rods . Very frustrating. 

Hi Andy, sorry I may not have detailed the situation properly.

The pistons that don't fit are a secondhand set that I bought, not realising that I needed to check 1.9 or 1.6.

 

The measurements detailed are from the original Pistons and are fine apart from No.2 having a slightly larger top ring gap.

 

So right now, my rebuild has stopped.