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FatherTed

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FatherTed

Hi everybody. New to the site. Rescuer of a barn find 1988 1.9 with a blown engine and spare as part of the deal. Replacement engine fitted. Seemed ok but massive coolant loss (not on drive!) and plumes of smoke chasing a MK4 golf. Thinking head gasket and valve stem oil seals. Debating rebuilding engine. Seen 3D motorsport on eBay. Now based in north Wales. Run by a guy called Eliot retallick.  Been quoted £2.5 k plus fitting. Anybody know of they are any good? Is this a good price? Cheers. Steve

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Telf

Are you mechanically minded? Do you have tools etc? These engines are fairly basic. I rebuilt mine completely for about £1200. 

 

Lots of guys on here can help you out. As for your

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FatherTed

I can do bolt on bolt off stuff but pulling the engine apart frightens the life out of me.  I understand the principles but I’m one of those people who trusts the professionals. Had my fingers burnt tackling diy projects only to call in the professionals  when I mess it up. Get one thing wrong (like the non protruding liners that caused the original to blow) and it all goes Pete Tong.

Spoox do a full refurb kit for £500. I was a cheap ass and shouldn’t have gambled on the replacement engine being any good and should have had the work done before fitting but I was desperate to get her in the road. 

Thoughts on a top end rebuild? I shouldn’t have to pull the engine out for that. Am I right in thinking it’s the head gasket and valve stem oil seals?  They have form for that don’t they?

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opticaltrigger

Hi there Stephen,

It really could be a multitude of different reasons, but on the sound of what your saying I would suggest that it wants a complete overhaul from top to bottom really.

These engines are getting very old now and have all had a hard life in one way or another over the years.

 

You mentioned that your not confident about the rebuild yourself and if that's the case then I would agree with you on getting it done for you.

The honest truth (imo) is that they can get nasty inside when it comes to rebuilds. Threads pull out of the block easily, liners don't seat in the block properly due to corrosion. Lots of real nasty stuff like that. Now it might not, but it Very!!!, Very!!! possibly will.

It's all fixable, and you shouldn't be put off dealing with it at all, but it can get much, much bigger very quickly and if your not expecting it and are not able to handle it on your own..................... Brain Damage !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also a point worthy of note is that if you go ahead and get it done, be sure to get checked and dealt with; the ancillary stuff to like sensors, afm's, distributors, etc because it would be horrible to have a nice new engine that won't run properly. 

 

As I said, don't let any of it put you off. Hope it helps a little anyway.

All the very best.

O.T.

  

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welshpug

myself and DCC (Dan ) have taken on similar work for forum members in the last few years, a gentleman from the Manchester area who's name escapes me right now was the most recent one, as well as a few local mates.

 

we would do it for a lot less than the 2.5k quoted, including fitting, though we would be inclined to use as much of your existing engine as possible to keep your costs down and save sourcing another unit.

Edited by welshpug
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steve@cornwall

Was the coolant lost as in leaked out or combusted? What colour was the smoke? 

After an engine swap i would suspect the inlet manifold gasket has maybe not been fitted properly. Quite common for the water galleries ( used on some models to heat the inlet, but not on the gti) to allow water into the cylinders under pressure. 

 

Smoke would be white. 

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FatherTed

Thanks for the offer Mei. No disrespect mate, but cost is and isn’t an issue here. We all know we can open the cheque book to get the spec that we want. I have to balance what I can reasonably spend. You mention using some of the old engine components to keep the cost down, but I have no idea of the donor engine’s history or quality.  I suspect that as the engine has been torn out of a beloved and uncherished pug, the owner didn’t,t give a rats ass about care. 

As mentioned I have been a cheap arse already. Buy cheap pay twice. I want it done right as I want her to live with and beyond my ownership. So, what could you do?  I could let you know what 3D propose doing and see if it’s worth it/comparable.

 

And Steve, dunno about the smoke. My bird commented on a little blue smoke whilst she was following me just on normal driving. I know the issues with the valve stem oil seals. After all, it is a 30 year old engine. This was a plume. Big plume, on hard acceleration. I was using Prestone coolant. I backed off (partly to stop those VW aresholes laughing their cocks off) she was running hot and steam from under the bonnet. Thought she had decided to auto cremate herself in shame losing out to the non turbo Mk4. Checked under the bonnet and traces of prestone sprayed over the engine. Empty expansion bottle. No sign of the pressure cap letting go or traces in the expansion tank run off tube. 

Think I’m gonna have to do test runs to see how I lose coolant. Might give a clue to the problem? 

Thanks for the input lads. I appreciate it.

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Tom Fenton

Sounds to me like the best way to progress is to do a cold pressure test. If there is coolant in the engine bay it sounds possible there is a hose leaking somewhere.

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rubyna
On 11 September 2018 at 12:08 PM, welshpug said:

myself and DCC (Dan ) have taken on similar work for forum members in the last few years, a gentleman from the Manchester area who's name escapes me right now was the most recent one, as well as a few local mates.

 

we would do it for a lot less than the 2.5k quoted, including fitting, though we would be inclined to use as much of your existing engine as possible to keep your costs down and save sourcing another unit.

I highly recommend Dan & Mei for this type of work and Axles/Beams without the cost of the big established shops! 

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opticaltrigger
21 hours ago, FatherTed said:

Thanks for the offer Mei. No disrespect mate, but cost is and isn’t an issue here. We all know we can open the cheque book to get the spec that we want. I have to balance what I can reasonably spend. You mention using some of the old engine components to keep the cost down, but I have no idea of the donor engine’s history or quality.  I suspect that as the engine has been torn out of a beloved and uncherished pug, the owner didn’t,t give a rats ass about care. 

As mentioned I have been a cheap arse already. Buy cheap pay twice. I want it done right as I want her to live with and beyond my ownership. So, what could you do?  I could let you know what 3D propose doing and see if it’s worth it/comparable.

Hi Stephen,

It doesn't really work like that.

Forget about the engines past, if your going to have someone rebuild it for you then that becomes irrelevant. And with regards to "So, what could you do"........... They would do exactly what was required and or requested.

 

As a point of note. Mei and Dan have both been doing this for a very long time, as well as many others on here, and all are very proficient and competent people.

The figures that Mei mentioned, in so much as being much less than 2.5K including installation (wow!!!), should be taken very seriously, simply because of the sentence above.

It's an excellent deal, and I suspect one that is available to you in great part, because of this forum community and it's love of 205's. As you have already seen, the commercial world is much more ruthless.

Simply for reference, I do build occasional engines for people, and I see why you were quoted commercial rates in the 2.5K region...... To do these things properly requires a tremendous amount of time, skill, and experience.

 

To sum up in short. With regards to using some of your existing engine parts, were talking about blocks, cranks, heads, and rods really. Unless there not serviceable, as in damaged beyond recovery, then they would be reused as mentioned to keep your costs in check. Unless that is, you wanted a higher performance spec, then they would advise you of the options that are available.

 

All the very best

O.T.

Edited by opticaltrigger

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Telf

I'm going to agree with optical, if you can't do it yourself peeps on here have the knowledge and know how to build an engine for you.

 

I did mine and leaned on all the guys here to get to the end, it wasn't hard but it did require reasonable mechanical knowledge and access to equipment ( although none too specialised).

 

before you commit either way have a read of the various build threads on here- its not as scary as you might first think

 

 

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FatherTed

Again thanks for the input lads. Was recounting my woes over a pint with my mate who restores bikes from the ground up. Done 2 for/ with me in his fully equipped workshop. He referred to me being a lil bitch being scared of a nasty engine rebuild and has offered to walk me through it. He knows engines both 2 and 4 stroke like the back of his hands. So with a gut full of Stella I agreed to a winter project, having a go at rebuilding the original, which obviously is out of the car. Guess I have been too influenced by Ed China, before Brewer binned him!

So, first things first. Gotta plan this properly. Which is the best workshop manual to work off? Is the Haynes good enough?

Secondly, Was pricing up a rebuild kit. Pug1off do one for £495. Seems to have all the components needed

I have a feeling that I ll be contacting dan and Mei in spring grovelling to rebuild the one that’s in it........

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welshpug

I would not use tug1off for anything, especially marked up engine parts!!!

 

find a local engine machinist, they will often have stuff in stock or get you stuff from FPS same or next day, they will also be able to advise you on wear and tolerances on your crank, liners etc, save you having to buy micrometers etc.

 

before buying anything get your engine stripped down, check the wear to the crank, liners, condition of the liner seats and the block itself.

 

A Haynes workshop manual has all the data you could need to refresh an 8v XU engine,

 

 

Specific engine tools you don't need a great deal, a halfords toolkit will get you a fair way, add a breaker bar, torque wrench and angle tightening gauge, and a piston ring compressor, and a set of feeler gauges, probably something else I have forgotten but nothing expensive.

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FatherTed

Thanks for the heads up. First job is to find a machinist! I guess he can advise on appropriate head skimming, bearing in mind the liner protrusion. And now for the bleeding obvious question list...Sorry for appearing to be dim

Will the machinist have access to wear and tolerance data for pug engines? If not where would he get it?

Which suppliers could supply the parts I need? You mention FPS. Can they supply everything? 

Also bit concerned about the liner seats. I guess they corode. Can they be brought back or is the block scrap?

If I’m pulling the engine to bits, what’s your opinion to polishing and porting the head?

I also read that the best way to improve the engine is a fast road cam and vernier pulley. Any opinion on those upgrades?

I want to plan this rebuild right. I ll post updates. Question is when I start, seeing as mate has just bought a track day CBR600 project........

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welshpug

fps is a trade only supplier, yiur machinist will likely have an account with them or a competitor.

 

the bearing catalogues have the tolerances listed iirc, though most bearings of a certain type will be pretty close in tolerance given the same diameter etc, the haynes manual has them also.

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welshpug

bar freshly cut valve seats I wouldnt do anything to a standard head to be honest.

 

liner seats themselves tend to be ok but the aluminium block corrodes around them and goes weak, not a great deal you can do if it cracks than source another block.

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Telf

Miles supplied all my parts ( from pug racing)- he is a member on here.

 

Haynes has all the info you need- get a workshop manual.(orange covered one)

 

On my head I just had the seats cut with a 3 angle cut, and skimmed the head.

 

The liner seats are ok (as I understand it) as long as the angular face are intact- the worst corrosion I saw on the 2 engines I stripped was in the corner of the block I had to reject a block because of this. If you strip the block and find damage seek advice on the forum before proceeding.

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Telf

heres the offending rot I found.

 

And heres a link to my build thread.

tom also had a great thread which helped me a lot- but I cant find the link now!

 

 

post-21474-0-22399500-1437498416_thumb.jpg

Edited by Telf

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FatherTed

Right! Sorry been offline for a while. Got the holidays out of the way. The girlfriend is put away with a bar of chocolate for the winter and I have space in my mates workshop. The recon in on. First job the plan and is to pull apart the original engine and check for the liner seat rot.

I want to do this right, so looking for a list of replacement parts I will need. So far Planning on bearings liners oil seals gaskets etc but what other essentials am I gonna need?

Found an engineering company to recon the crank - Lanes End engineering in prescot (anybody heard of them? They do work for ‘50’ so they should be ok?) they can skim the head too. Want to warm the engine too..Possibly identified a piper cam from a garage clearance but will have to go back to piper for verification. (Which they charge £38 for! And one of their vernier pulleys as all my reading up on the 8v engine is that Peugeot got it so right it’s the best mod you can make to the standard engine without going mental on the spec. Also read updated valve springs help the engine rev a bit better?if so where can I get those?

Debating a motorcycle carb conversion but really want to keep her standard as much as I can and keep the vintage injection. And working to a budget means this isn’t feasible as the manifolds are going out at £350 ish. So that’s on hold for now whilst I wrestle with the morality of changing the original spec. Although got a nice set of Mikuni’s off a CBR600 to go on it...... hmmm.....

Miles from Pug Racing has been recommended for bits.  Will he be able to supply all the bits? His shop is on eBay right?

All advice greatly appreciated as always. 

Steve.

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rubyna

Yes Miles will have all you need probably better to pm him on here though ? Good thread by the way will be watching with interest

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boldy205

Save yourself time money and bother by not doing a bike carb conversation.  If u want an ITB type set up, get a set of Jenveys etc

 

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Miles

Just drop me a PM for parts as I have a large network of suppliers, But as above I would never look at Bike carbs or ITB's, just not worth it

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