You Must Have Bigger Brakes!

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

 

Tom, whilst both valid points, I think you've fallen in to the same trap and missed my point.

 

Your point seems to be that you are happy to drive the car around the brakes, mine is that I am not happy to do that and would rather the brakes be more capable than the power available. Each to their own.

[GLPoomobile 958]

No that wasn't my point Tom.

 

In simple terms (as simple as I can make them anyway), my driving style won't change because of an increase in power. So by increasing power, it does not follow that I need to increase braking. The case would be different if my driving style was more aggressive, as I would more likely hit higher speeds on the road. So my point is actually that in prescribing better brakes as a MUST HAVE when increasing power, you are working to an assumption that the driver will use the extra power on the road in a manner that requires improved stopping ability, and I just don't believe this is always the case.

[GLPoomobile 958]

The point here is - Drive according to the brakes you have, or get brakes to support how you drive. If you are heavy on them, increase the capacity to dissipate the heat. If your driving style is very light on the brakes, and you roll into braking areas, fine keep the standard brakes. Yes an uprated 205, using it's performance, needs bigger brakes.

 

Exactly Justin.

 

Though I've highlighted the bit "using it's performance" because again, it depends HOW you use the performance. Driving style, as I keep saying. It doesn't necessarily mean NOT using all the available "go" from a higher power car, just HOW, WHEN and WHERE you use it.

Edited May 8, 2014 by GLPoomobile

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

So you are saying that having spent £xxxx on making a car faster, the driver isn't going to make use of that performance? And in addition the driver is not going to get caught out when driving along not realising how much quicker he may be going at a given point?

 

Carry on with your argument but to me its massively flawed.

[welshpug 1,627]

making use of the performance is somewhat different to driving like a d*ck and ending up arriving at a corner too fast, nothing will save you in that instance.

[roccorich 16]

If a standard 205 is capable of locking its brakes up, why fit larger discs?

 

So you can leave a bigger skid mark when you arrive at that corner way too fast, because of your own damned stupid fault?

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

And if you do put more powerful on the front and don't do anything with the bias that the manufacturer set up from standard then the fronts will lock up even quicker and the backs will do less than before so you'll actually stop over a greater distance....

[GLPoomobile 958]

Ah, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions

 

So do you (Tom) subscribe to the mentality that one should always advise (I'll go out on a limb here and state that often people are told, rather than advised) that a stranger spends money on modifications, without fully understanding how the car is to be used?

 

If (for example) I were to drive my favourite B road regularly, and lets say that on average I would travel about 80mph along various bits of NSL straight sections between corners (making me a marginally naughty driver), you are suggesting that I will suddenly start driving that same road at even higher speeds in a faster car. And that is a fair and valid suggestion. And I do not disagree that should I choose to do this, I might find the limitations of the brakes and want to upgrade them. The concept you find alien though Tom, is that not every driver feels the need to wring every last drop of performance from a car on the road, or that they aren't capable of knowing how fast they are travelling, nor should it follow that they must be such a driver just because they've spent £xxxx making the car faster.

Edited May 8, 2014 by GLPoomobile

[roccorich 16]

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/white-paper---brake-bias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters

[kyepan 291]

Ah, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions

 

So do you (Tom) subscribe to the mentality that one should always advise (I'll go out on a limb here and state that often people are told, rather than advised) that a stranger spends money on modifications, without fully understanding how the car is to be used?

 

If (for example) I were to drive my favourite B road regularly, and lets say that on average I would travel about 80mph along various bits of NSL straight sections between corners (making me a marginally naughty driver), you are suggesting that I will suddenly start driving that same road at even higher speeds in a faster car. And that is a fair and valid suggestion. And I do not disagree that should I choose to do this, I might find the limitations of the brakes and want to upgrade them. The concept you find alien though Tom, is that not every driver feels the need to wring every last drop of performance from a car on the road, or that they aren't capable of knowing how fast they are travelling, nor should it follow that they must be such a driver just because they've spent £xxxx making the car faster.

has Sarty got your account credentials....

[oonip 4]

Sounds like there's some very spirited driving going on if you end up doing several big stops in short succession, not to mention several hairpins in quick succession on one stretch of road!

 

I struggle to see the link between power and braking performance on the road, are you literally flat out on the throttle and then flat out on the brakes when these problems occur?

 

So what your saying is when you drive the car on the road as if you were on a race track the brakes go away from you? That seems to be missing the point of the Op.

[kyepan 291]

 

So when I get my Mi16 back on the road, I'm going to stick the original 1.6 brakes back on with stock parts, and whack a f***-off big NOS system in, and to hell with all the nay sayers

 

To answer your original question, and i had a 1.6 setup originally. To upgrade your brakes you need new hubs, and driveshafts, as there is not much out there for the 1.6.

 

I'd definitely do it in your situation, but you may drive like miss daisy and not require it.

 

this is good reading

Edited May 8, 2014 by kyepan

[Edp 67 3 Cars]

 

Carry on with your argument but to me its massively flawed.

 

And from reading this thread slightly naive. I just don't believe by uprating a car and adding extra power you aren't going to use that power? and I'm not talking about driving like a d*ck.

 

Sure your driving type might be 'sunday driver' then why bother with the extra power at all?

 

Every conversion I've done I've fitted bigger brakes. Not because I can now drive like a d*ck, just because I want to stop when required. Each to there own I guess.

[willis 18 1 Cars]

I'm a bit confuzzled....

 

Surely better brakes, not nesessarily bigger but perhaps drilled/grooved, will stop your car quicker. Of course you could lock up just as quickly, if not quicker, than standard brakes but the feel, fade and overall performance must be better.

 

The 205 isnt a heavy car but nor is a Lotus or an Ariel atom and they are always fitted with performance brakes.......why? It's not just to bump up the selling price of the car, surely.

 

Without replacing most or all of the parts eg hoses & calipers etc then there will be less point but I fail to understand how better brakes wouldn't stop you better.

[roccorich 16]

Better brakes will stop you better but only if they are balanced properly front and rear. The moment you lock up your brakes aren't converting any more energy instead your tyres are.....

 

So if you whack better brakes on the front and you put the anchors on the weight shifts forward faster than before meaning the back brakes can do less work.

[willis 18 1 Cars]

Sorry, I should have been more clear but I was referring to front and rear.

[roccorich 16]

Although if standard brakes can lock the wheels then as others have said its only fade your going to effect

 

I always found the spring loaded compensator on the beam of my old 306 seeemed to manage the bias really well. Even if I slammed right on it would rarely lock up and even then only at the last moment but always stopped very quick and no it didnt have abs before any says it.

[Biggles 65]

Although if standard brakes can lock the wheels then as others have said its only fade your going to effect

 

That's the point though. The "adequate" brakes on your road car will handle the ohmygod emergency stop on the motorway fine. Once. How would they cope if you immediately accelerated back up to 77mph (10% plus 2 ... ) and did it again ?

 

Alternatively, go for a play down the Trough of Bowland in your 1.6 GTI. All good fun, brakes cope OK, average speed is about 40mph (you are pressing on after all). Then go home and drop the Mi16 motor in and do it again. Average speed is now 45mph. Not a big difference you say except for the fact the brakes are now having to dissipate about 25% more energy...

 

If you're not going to use it, then why spend your hard earned on more power ? And I don't mean you're going to suddenly start driving it like you stole it.

 

A significant factor is how "over engineered" were the brakes to start with. I remember taking a not very high performance car spiritedly through the lanes round Eccup near Leeds - on my own it was fine - with a passenger, the brakes lasted 3 corners ...

[GLPoomobile 958]

Well this discussion has been fun

 

Seems like most people can't get their head out of the performance-car-enthusiast mindset. I'm not surprised by that.

 

 

And from reading this thread slightly naive. I just don't believe by uprating a car and adding extra power you aren't going to use that power? and I'm not talking about driving like a d*ck.

 

Sure your driving type might be 'sunday driver' then why bother with the extra power at all?

 

Every conversion I've done I've fitted bigger brakes. Not because I can now drive like a d*ck, just because I want to stop when required. Each to there own I guess.

 

Explain how it's naive?

 

Firstly, I don't believe I've ever implied anything about not using the extra power. If I did, then I apologise for badly wording previous posts. By using the "Sunday driver" comment you are effectively taking this to the opposite extreme, and showing that you don't understand where I'm coming from.

 

Secondly, I fully expected (but it still makes me ) that quite a few people would ask why bother having the extra power if you aren't going to use it. I will re-iterate, yet again, it's about HOW you use it. Even if you are a "Sunday driver" it's always handy to have a decent dollop of torque at your disposal (the occasional necessary overtake for example). There's an assumption by many (demonstrated here), that if you own a quick car, are a member of a club such as this one, and consider tuning or engine swaps, that you must be the type of driver who wants to exploit the available power on the road in a manner that requires consistent, repeated and effective stopping power. Not everyone drives like that, and this has nothing to do with upping a car's performance and then driving like a "Sunday driver". I'm astonished that people can be so closed-minded that they just can't comprehend this Yet I'm the one who is naive?

 

Consider this - to all of you who are in support of the idea that you MUST uprate brakes, I assume you have all uprated your own brakes. So I ask you this, what dictated the type of upgrade you have fitted? Was it budget, wheel size, or simply that you chose the parts sufficient to do the job you required to an acceptable standard for your driving style, and you are satisfied with that choice, or something else? Many of you have stated/implied that you want to stop as quickly as possible/shortest distance in an emergency, or just for attacking corners at speed, and that you want resistance to fade for attacking those numerous hairpins on your favourite route. So where do you draw the line? Why are you not (and I know not all of you are) using the biggest discs you can fit under your wheels with multi pot calipers? Why are you not all fitting bigger wheels so that you can fit bigger brakes? I mean, if we take this as a black and white argument (which many of you seem to see this, judging by the replies) you all require the very best brakes possible! Of course I'm being entirely facetious , and the real reason is that is that you have uprated your brakes to a standard that "does the job" and you don't need to go beyond this. And what criteria dictates what "does the job"? Well one would be your driving style............and around the circle we go again

Edited May 9, 2014 by GLPoomobile

[Anthony 1,000]

"You must upgrade your brakes" is clearly an over-generalisation and not always true.

 

"You must ensure that your brakes are upto the job, upgrading if required" would be far more accurate IMO.

 

Take this example. Drop an Mi16 engine into a 1.9 GTi and the standard brakes, if in good order and with some OE quality (or better) pads, will be plenty sufficient for road and light trackday use even if you are using the additional power. Drop the same engine into a base model 205 and suddenly the standard brakes are looking very marginal indeed and would be quite easy to overwhelm with any enthusiastic driving.

 

Same engine, same basic car and same approximate weight - yet two very different outcomes.

[Batfink 201]

Stick a well thought out suspension kit on and the brakes can be worked harder before traction is lost. Brakes can never be looked at in isolation

[GLPoomobile 958]

"You must upgrade your brakes" is clearly an over-generalisation and not always true.

 

Thank you Anthony. I thought I was going mad, thought that maybe I was writing in French or something! It's nice that a few people do actually get where I'm coming from!

[Edp 67 3 Cars]

 

I thought I was going mad, thought that maybe I was writing in French or something!

 

chacun leur propre

Edited May 9, 2014 by Edp

[B11 BOB 11]

I agree with the fact you defiantly need better brakes if your running more power than standard.However without fitting bigger alloys your limited to what brakes you can fit.Once you fit a different set of alloys to a 205 it loses its originality.Gti6 calipers and uprated pads are adequate for around 200 bhp after that your limited due to wheel size.

[welshpug 1,627]

Colin satchell still runs 15" wheels with 270+

 

Though the saxo rc i will be servicing for this year runs 17" and "only" 190.

[B11 BOB 11]

What brake set up does he use ?