You Must Have Bigger Brakes!

[GLPoomobile 958]

Probably one for the "Silly Things That Annoy You Topic" but thought it was worthy of its own debate.....

 

So, over 20 years of taking a keen interest in the world of cars, modifying and so on, there's a "rule" that seems to be written in stone....

 

If you are increasing your car's performance, you MUST improve the brakes too (preferably a pre-cursor, along with chassis improvements).

 

I'm not about to argue with the sentiment behind this - yes, it makes some sense - but as an over-arching statement it doesn't make sense to me as it takes no consideration of many factors. Do I stand alone in finding this irritating, or has anyone else considered this?

 

Here's a hypothetical example:

Let's say I have a standard 1.6 GTI, and the brakes are perfectly adequate (the word adequate is absolute key here, as I'm talking about something being fit for purpose, NOT the best you can get). On the public road I'm able to enjoy the car as Peugeot intended, including stretching its legs and being occasionally naughty, and under such use the brakes perform adequately.

 

Now I intend to fit a Mi16 engine, giving me a ~45bhp advantage. Perhaps not here (as we are a clued up bunch ), but in most other places I'd be immediately advised to upgrade my brakes. Why?

 

I'm continuing to drive on the public road, my driving style is going to remain broadly the same, my car's grip has not been changed (apart from minor difference due to weight and COG due to the engine change), my gearing (in this example) is the same, my top speed is irrelevant as I would not get near it on the public road. All that has significantly changed is my cars ability to gain speed more quickly. Therefore one might assume that the car will spend more of its time at a higher speed, and need to brake from higher speeds more often. This is a valid assumption, but it's still just an assumption.

 

I think people get too caught up in the tuning mentality and can't separate what is sensible for a performance oriented car that may be used on the track, and what is a road car that might occasionally use 8/10 of the available performance.

 

So when I get my Mi16 back on the road, I'm going to stick the original 1.6 brakes back on with stock parts, and whack a f***-off big NOS system in, and to hell with all the nay sayers

Edited May 7, 2014 by GLPoomobile

[welshpug 1,627]

Agreed

 

Our pugs have pretty outstanding brake and chassis setups for such simple little machines.

 

 

 

A friend loves his VW's, namely the Scirocco, and for something that is not too far in basic dimensions and setup to a 205 (hell they share the same master cylinder!) It really IS something that needs better brakes even as a standard car.

[roccorich 16]

Agreed

 

Our pugs have pretty outstanding brake and chassis setups for such simple little machines.

 

 

 

A friend loves his VW's, namely the Scirocco, and for something that is not too far in basic dimensions and setup to a 205 (hell they share the same master cylinder!) It really IS something that needs better brakes even as a standard car.

 

Maybe driving flimsy french cars has made you weak and your just not used able to push the pedal hard enough

 

Seriously though Scirocco brakes are more than adequate standard as long as you keep on top of everything and make sure the cross linkage is all nice and tight, Ive certainly locked mine up plenty of times inadvertanly.

[welshpug 1,627]

I've never driven the bloody thing thanks

 

 

I ride bikes, my legs are strong enough

Edited May 7, 2014 by welshpug

[Batfink 201]

The Mk1 golf suffers from flex in the master cylinder linkages with UK cars, i'm guessing the Scirocco is the same and not based on the Mk2. Personally I've never felt the need to fit bigger brakes to a 205, although i've upgraded pad material.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Batfink

[rallyeash 155]

Think it's what people read in whatcar and generic car mags aimed for the masses then take it as gosball.

 

I agree that bigger brakes are better and the 6pots on my 205 are good, however I did run gti6 calipers on stock discs with decent pads on a dedicated track car for a couple of years, More than upto the job of stopping me fast enough, it was just the constant lap after lap abuse which made me go for better calipers.

 

Would I have a problem running standard 1.9 brakes on my 205 with 230hp if I only used it on the road? Not atall providing they were in a decent serviceable condition.

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I don't agree at all. 200-odd bhp in a 205 means it is very very easy to arrive at a corner going far quicker than you thought or expected. Allied to the fact that brakes in modern cars have undoubtedly improved many times over then to avoid the "oh-s*it-heart-in-mouth" moments when the modern car slams the brakes on ahead of you that some bigger stoppers are very much a good idea. On a standard car they are only just adequate to modern standards.

[Biggles 65]

As a generalisation, "if you improve performance, you must improve the brakes" I think is fair enough on pretty much any vehicle, but as with all these things, the devil is in the detail. If you put 250bhp in your 205 but never use it, then you don't need to do anything to the brakes. On the other hand, 150bhp on std brakes, driven 'spiritedly' round the lanes in the Lakes where I grew up is going to end in tears quite quickly.

[Bogsye 22]

Can't comment on 205's but I'd broadly agree with Tom. We've got two Golfs. One's a 2.0 Tdi the other an R32. Arriving at a junction in the diesel at pace wearing the R32 mindset has caught me a few times where the difference in braking capability is quite significant.

Granted better anticipation would be useful. )

 

Just changed the R's front pads last night and was surprised they are just crude single piston affairs. Big, but crude and effective. If I got rid of it I'd miss the decent stopping capability that it has .

[2052006 10]

I've read plenty of topics advising that there's no need to upgrade to bigger brakes with a 16v engine, for example. However, I simply don't find my standard brakes (1.9 calipers, changed from the original 1.6 types) adequate. I took the advice at first, as it seemed sound - I didn't want to ruin the unique handling of the 205 with more unsprung weight. The way the Pug drives, is the reason I keep it, after all. I fitted upgraded pads for track work, in addition to upgraded fluid and braided flexies.

 

First, 1144s - killed them on track. Then RC5+ - they were much better, at least they didn't fade, but still didn't inspire much confidence. Calipers rebuilt, discs on rear too. Therefore, I haven't got much alternative than try bigger brakes. I contacted companies about four figure set-ups to try and keep it light, but for now, have decided to go the gti6 route and picked up a complete set up with brand new discs and DS2500s cheap enough - may as well give them a go. Am going to run them with a 23mm master cylinder as well.

 

It wasn't like they were ok on the road either - the RC5+ pads would simply not work properly at road speeds for example - they needed a fair bit of heat in them. So upgrading to "better" pads and keeping the standard calipers doesn't seem to work for me.

 

I am fully prepared to be disappointed with my new gti6 "bigger brakes", but have to give it a go. I think maybe, as already alluded to, it's down to modern brakes being much better (or perhaps just giving a different feel with more assistance?). In any case, my "modern" cars seem more confidence inspiring, so I've got to try a different set-up on the 205!

Edited May 7, 2014 by 2052006

[Ams 23 1 Cars]

When I've fitted an appropriate suspension upgrade package coupled with stickier tyres it has led to much improved braking, without touching the brakes, but this was with cars that had a decent brake set-up off the bat. When I've upgraded discs and pads the main benefits have been in fade resistance/consistency and a more linear feel. I have GTI6 calipers, Mintex 1144 Mintex 1155 pads and Bremsport discs due to go on so will see how that goes (car is for town and fast road use).

I'm also due to fit a plated diff soon (50/90 ramp angle, lightweight setup) so it'll be interesting to feel the difference in braking behaviour under deceleration as compared with an open diff on a front wheel drive car.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Ams

[roccorich 16]

I've never driven the bloody thing thanks

 

 

I ride bikes, my legs are strong enough

 

You should give it a try, if its anything like mine then the lift off oversteer brings endless amounts of fun, something I was hoping to get with my CTI but sadly it doesn't seem to share that trait with the hardtop, or I just haven't got the hang of it yet.

[Biggles 65]

Just changed the R's front pads last night and was surprised they are just crude single piston affairs. Big, but crude and effective.

 

And cheap. It's a common practice - single piston calipers on big discs on performance road cars.

[Slo 283 1 Cars]

I definitely need to upgrade my 1.6 brakes on mine with a cast iron 2 litre turbo engine, yes they are pretty good but i've got braided hoses too which was a vast improvement

 

But the main niggle for me is if you set off in first gear slowly then speed up a touch and brake with your left foot then floor it at the same time the engine can defeat the brakes

 

The 1.9 I had before didn't have a prayer of doing that it would stall immediately.

 

I've had the odd moment of approaching said stopped traffic far too fast in the last year and its no fun knowing there's a boat anchor's worth of weight yanking you towards it.

 

Just need some 1.9 hubs but always at work when people are selling them and miss out.

[Batfink 201]

Basically it's horses for courses. Standard brakes work for most road cars. I ran 180bhp and was happy with the 1.9 calipers. Driving a 216bhp supercharged gti-6 is fine on 1.9 calipers on the road. Dedicated track cars are in a different league and no doubt if you are chasing big power.

On the flip side your chassis modifications and suspension choice has a massive effect on the braking performance of your car

[willis 18 1 Cars]

My wife has a Mini Cooper S Works and the brakes on that are rubbish. It's fine around town and normal driving but dreadful when trying to slow down from speed, not lunatic though, during a bit of spirited driving, which the engine has been designed for. My friend has the same model but paid for the JCW improved brakes. That thing stops!

 

I'm not convinced it's because of the extra 40 BHP on it........

[Mac Crash 78 1 Cars]

All good relevant information, definitely an important topic... obviously the best you can afford is always going to be the answer... also pad material... talking about old Volkswagen's (cough) owned a left hand drive (1980 W-reg) Mk1 GTi 1.6 back in the early 90's, imported from Germany, so none of the brake linkage issues there and it was normal after about about 20 miles on unlisted/ungraded back roads to have severe brake fade to the point of not being able to stop at junctions etc. Being young and daft at the time, care-free, plus no traffic like we have today (feel sorry for you young boys with todays traffic) the only thing you were likely to meet was the farmer in his Land Rover... nowadays, things have changed and remarkably fast too. In those days we could live with it, now I think it's not an option.

 

It's all relevant, tyre adhesion, compound, heat, pad material, weight of car, power of car, driver ability... one thing that always has been a bug-bear for me is why so called modern performance cars can still run sliding calipers? even my old Mini (67) had single pot calipers, hmmm, and a steel crank... so why does a 300bhp S4 have sliding calipers? cost, obviously... or... it's designed for road use only... not to go motor racing like the old Mini... can't help feeling we lost and gained over the last few decades... e.g. some people here will still insist Group B cars are not as quick as modern day rally cars.. ask anyone who really, really knows and they will tell you that is complete bulls*it! ... and what's that got to do with brakes? everything if you think about it! car technology peaked in the 80's when they banned Group B, think where it would be today 20 years later if they hadn't? Does a 200bhp 205 Gti need uprated brakes? I'd think so, yes, if you use a car like this 95% then for sure it will need performance brakes... the standard caliper, disk and pad and hoses won't give you 95% of what is required to stop this motor... we all know there is no shutting off or coasting in racing, it's everything... the road is different and down to the driver to make allowances for what he has, anything else is dangerous and bad driving. Left foot braking too, harsh on brakes and difficult to master but completely a god send for the 205 driver once you have... it's easy to spend a lot of money but from my own experience the most important thing for me regarding brakes has always been pad material/compound....and tyres)))

[Biggles 65]

why does a 300bhp S4 have sliding calipers? cost, obviously... or... it's designed for road use only... not to go motor racing like the old Mini...

Cost - pure & simple. The Escort Cosworth (designed principally as a Group A rally car) came from Ford with single piston sliding calipers. The Group A rules allowed you to replace the brakes - hence the std setup got binned & 4 pots were the order of the day. However, some people rallied and raced it under the Group N rules which did not allow brakes to be changed - and the brakes left a lot to be desired ...

 

 

[Biggles 65]

some people here will still insist Group B cars are not as quick as modern day rally cars.. ask anyone who really, really knows and they will tell you that is complete bulls*it!

 

Define "quick". There's lots of data in the public domain to prove a modern WRC is "quicker" than a Group B car. Stages that were run back in the Group B days are still run today in exactly the same format and today's cars set noticeably faster times. Hence they are "quicker". The reduction in stage time comes from improved tyres, improved transmissions, improved (more useable) power delivery, and improved brakes. The Quattro Sport used to run water cooled brakes to make them last a stage - is that needed today ?

 

[2052NV 24]

at least put 1.9 or 306 GTI6 brakes on. No ones going to thank you for not doing it???

[oonip 4]

I agree the 'need' for bigger brakes is, on the whole vastly over rated in terms of necessity.

 

The big problem is always going to be an individual's perception of better. On any road car it's fair to say the brakes should be adequate to do 2 things, lock all four wheels (preferably at the same time if done in a straight line!) and have the thermal capacity to stop the car from its top speed. So on the road for the majority of 205's standard well maintained brakes are 'adequate'.

 

How ever jumping from a modern car into the pug I always find the pedal feel too soft for my liking (not inadequate!) so I have gone for braided lines and lotus 2pots on the front which gives me a firmer feel.

 

Even with this relatively lightweight upgrade the added unsprung mass is noticeable - another drawback to bigger brakes.

 

On a track it's an entirely different kettle of fish and a whole new set of operating conditions!

[GLPoomobile 958]

Basically it's horses for courses. Standard brakes work for most road cars. I ran 180bhp and was happy with the 1.9 calipers. Driving a 216bhp supercharged gti-6 is fine on 1.9 calipers on the road. Dedicated track cars are in a different league and no doubt if you are chasing big power.

On the flip side your chassis modifications and suspension choice has a massive effect on the braking performance of your car

 

 

Kev gets it As do a few others who have posted here.

 

This is all about circumstances. If you read between the lines, my gripe is about the prescription of a standard approach to any car tuning, that dictates you MUST improve your brakes if increasing power. There are so many other things to consider..

 

Of course it's always going to beneficial if you can do something to improve braking (whether that be stopping ability, resistance to fade, or pedal feel), but I feel the mentality applied by so many people is that all of a sudden your brakes will become inadequate if you increase the power of your car, even if it's by, lets say 20bhp. Clearly if you go from a standard 1.6 GTI and stick a tuned 16v turbo in there with 400bhp, then yeah, you probably are going to see the short comings in your brakes quite soon. But again, that's just an assumption and gives no consideration to driver style and how that 400bhp is going to be used, and so just because those brakes might not be up to the job when all 400bhp is being used on a track, doesn't necessarily mean that they won't be up to the job when the car's only being driven to 3/10 of it's capability on the public road by a driver who knows his own limitations and doesn't want to spank the arse off it.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I don't agree at all. 200-odd bhp in a 205 means it is very very easy to arrive at a corner going far quicker than you thought or expected. Allied to the fact that brakes in modern cars have undoubtedly improved many times over then to avoid the "oh-s*it-heart-in-mouth" moments when the modern car slams the brakes on ahead of you that some bigger stoppers are very much a good idea. On a standard car they are only just adequate to modern standards.

 

Tom, whilst both valid points, I think you've fallen in to the same trap and missed my point.

 

Yes, I can't argue that as power is increased, so is the ability to arrive at a given corner faster than you may have before. However, this gives no credit at all to the driver. It assumes that the driver is going to use every ounce of the new found power and attack every corner at full pelt. It also assumes that the driver isn't going to adapt to the extra power. Wouldn't you, after making a significant change to any car, drive more carefully whilst you learn it characteristics and limitations ("shake down"?)? In doing so, if you then find that your brakes are now a limitation due to YOUR DRIVING STYLE then of course upgrade them!

 

I've had 2 1.6s, a 1.9 and now an Mi16 (not a massive frame of reference I realise) and moving up to the Mi16 didn't mean I was suddenly driving much faster everywhere on the road, and approaching corners faster. Across the same sorts of roads, I would drive to to MY abilities not those of the car I'm in. That's because my driving style is cautious. I don't drive like a nun everywhere, I enjoy speed and I enjoy the sensation of acceleration and so on, but I'm not the sort of person who drives at 9/10s on the road and I just don't go heavy on the brakes. Since moving away from 205s I've had a 220bhp Saab 9-3, a 240bhp Alfa 166 and now a 250bhp Volvo V70 T5. All are capable of a good turn of speed, but driving them hasn't changed my driving style, I'm still not a heavy braker. So my point is that, if you were to tell me that I MUST upgrade the brakes on my 205 before putting a 250bhp Lynx supercharged GTI6 engine in my 205, I'd say thanks for the heads up, but I probably won't need to. Given my driving style, adding improved brakes could be an unnecessary expense.

 

Your last bit about modern cars outbraking (I assume you are talking just about 205s here) is valid, but then that's a pretty broad point. There will always be someone on the road who can stop better than you. So again I'd say this comes down to driver style and recognising your limitations. Give yourself a bit more space between you and the car in front. If you spend a lot of your time buried up the arse of Audi RS4s then you probably do want some very meaty brakes, plenty of Redbull, and make sure your reactions are tip-top!

Edited May 8, 2014 by GLPoomobile

[welshpug 1,627]

If a standard 205 is capable of locking its brakes up, why fit larger discs?

 

So you can leave a bigger skid mark when you arrive at that corner way too fast, because of your own damned stupid fault?

 

[kyepan 291]

I don't agree at all. 200-odd bhp in a 205 means it is very very easy to arrive at a corner going far quicker than you thought or expected. Allied to the fact that brakes in modern cars have undoubtedly improved many times over then to avoid the "oh-s*it-heart-in-mouth" moments when the modern car slams the brakes on ahead of you that some bigger stoppers are very much a good idea. On a standard car they are only just adequate to modern standards.

I whole heartedly agree with tom here, you do need proper brakes on an uprated car, i'll expand on what i mean by proper in a second. If you're accelerating faster and therefore travelling faster in between corners, of course you need to increase the cars ability to slow itself down, otherwise you're not going to get round that corner.

 

People, would also be surprised what standard brakes can do, on a single stop, especially with good quality tyres. It's the strength of your leg, and the feel you have for the grip that is largely the limiting factor for that single stop, not the brakes. The difference after that stop, is basically how well the brakes can cope with further stops of that nature, and the problem with standard brakes is they can't get rid of the heat.

 

Most people don't actually stand it on it's nose on the road often enough to heat soak the brakes. Even the karts out testing yesterday at whilton, most of them including the gearbox karts, which have two front and one rear brake, were not really braking anywhere near as hard or as late as the two rotaxes (including the chap who came second in the Rotax worlds). People on the road barely graze the braking performance available, and the cars are so over servoed it gives the impression that the brakes are better, when in fact they're probably just as marginal as they always were. Personally I need brakes that can be leant on hard hard, again and again, that don't warp, and don't go away after several big stops.

 

I actually had quite a big moment recently, rolling along on a national speed limit road, doing under the limit, i needed the brakes to work all of a sudden, the grip in the tarmac was there, conditions were good, but my brakes which had been asked to do a couple of big stops in the previous five minutes were too hot and just went away at the critical moment. Thankfully some horn and flashing stopped them half way out of the junction before the big expensive OOF.

 

I've had standard 1.6 brakes that faded after only a few big stops, 306hdi 283mm with ds2500's that stopped on a dime and never went away, but were too heavy and i warped the discs on those too, and a standard set of 1.9 brakes with m1144 that now have warped discs after a month or two... So anyone who can recommend some light weight brakes that will take proper abuse, and not warp, please let me know (no willwood).

 

The point here is - Drive according to the brakes you have, or get brakes to support how you drive. If you are heavy on them, increase the capacity to dissipate the heat. If your driving style is very light on the brakes, and you roll into braking areas, fine keep the standard brakes. Yes an uprated 205, using it's performance, needs bigger brakes.

 

J

 

 

 

Cheers