Guest joe Posted November 18, 2003 what are there perpouse???? and what happends if they break or perish??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 18, 2003 (edited) The drop links attach the front suspension strut to the anti roll bar. This bar goes under the car and via another drop link attaches to the other suspension strut. The idea is, as you corner and the car leans out of the bend, the outer strut is compressed and the drop link pushes down on the bar. This energy is transferred to the other side of the car and attempts to pull down on the opposite strut, levelling the car. The stiffer the anti roll bar the less roll. If they brake then you would effectively have removed the anti roll bar and allow body roll controlled only by the front springs and, if fitted, the rear antil roll bar to some extent. If the ball joints in the drop links are shagged, you will get a knocking noise when the front wheels go over pot holes. hth Edited November 18, 2003 by Big Nick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 18, 2003 if they were broke or worn would this affect the stabiliaty or the car when driving??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 18, 2003 In a straight line, not really, if at all. On the bends, it won't cause the car to be unstable really but it all depends on what you mean by unstable. Give us a bit more info. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 18, 2003 It shouldn't be the cause of your steering problem. Before the last topic went pete tong, I think the general concensus was either Wishbone bushes shagged Wishbone ball joints knackered Hub ball joint socket ovalised Hub ball joint socket pinch bolt loose Uneven tyre pressures Loose wishbone mounting bolts Worn wihsbone mounting bolt holes in subframe Duff wheel bearings (but this would invoke other symptoms as well) Worn steering rack (rare but not impossible) Worn universal joint on steering column (it would have to be very worn though as mine is knackered but doesn't cause wandering) On the GTi setup, the anti roll bar plays no part in supporting the front wishbone against for and aft movement, only the forward and rear mounting bolts on the wishbones do this. Get these checked out. I know you said that the garage guy checked out the suspension so I don't really know what else to suggest. hth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiji bob 0 Posted November 18, 2003 replacing mine did make a difference in a straight line theres a bit of road near me that has a rough section that used to bounce the car a bit but it felt like the car was floating over them after id replaced them with new ones Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 18, 2003 cheers BIG N...... im gonna pring out what you said and show the garage cos they are thinking on a triel and error process and think there is some play in the drop links. how do you tell if the steering rack is on the way out? cheers mate joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 18, 2003 Weird how Fijibob noticed a difference. I guess it is the fact that the shock movement is stiffened slightly by the anti roll bar connected to the opposite strut doing it's own thing. I drove mine back from a garage with no anti roll bar fitted and found no difference in a straight line at all, only more roll in corners. I wouldn't have said it effects the floaty feeling unless the shocks are knackered/poor and the anti roll bar was 'helping' the damping somehow. The drop links if suffering from worn bushes only ie still connecting the strut to the bar, would have to be severely worn in my opinion. Still, if Fijibob has experience then you could go that route. The drop links are easy to change and fairly inexpensive. I'd mention the psychological effect changing things has on people but that might not happen in this case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 18, 2003 Just thought, be careful with the garage. Going in print out in hand telling them their job might not go down to well! I know that when the guys come in from their trips away with snags and proceed to tell me how to go about fixing it, they usually get the prongs User feedback is what they need, the same as you have given us. You could suggest some things if they look stumped but to be honest, any garage worth their salt should know what causes this type of fault. As I said in the last post though, getting the car on ramps and pulling things about by hand, may not show any wear up unless it is significant. Forinstance, the front mounting bolt on the wishbone could be shot, the rear still tight. When jacked up the pressure of the spring in the strut pushes the whole hub/wishbone down and keeps it under load. It would take some hefty tugging around to get the thing to move and even then probably not noticable unless the mechanic was closely watching with someone else doing the manual work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fiji bob 0 Posted November 18, 2003 it definitely made a difference, when i say floaty i dont mean in a bad way the bumps kind of alternate on either side of the lane tbh its only that bit of road i noticed any difference Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 18, 2003 (edited) big n........... they have had the car on ramps in the air and on the tryes and they levered avery thing with a bar and found no movment. (didnt know you were a mechanic!!!) i guess it would be a bit wrong to try tell them what to do if i went in with a list of possibiliatys. i guess i should get under the pug and check that bolts anr tight myself just incase. i know the tracking was out and they put that right but the problem still persists how can you tell if the steering rack is on the way out????? Edited November 18, 2003 by joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 19, 2003 didnt know you were a mechanic!!!) Sort of, but not on cars I'm afraid. Same principles apply though. If the garage has done this then you can be 90% certain that there isn't much wrong with the bushes etc side of life. As for worn steering rack and/or steering column shafts: you will feel this through the steering wheel. Thankfully, Pug 205 have heavy steering (even the PAS version with the engine off). Gently turn the steering wheel between a couple of fingers (with the engine off). You should have high resistance almost immediately. If the wheel turns a few mm either way before stiffening up then something is wearing. In my instance, there is about a cm either side of the centre line that the wheel will rotate before resistance is felt (2cm in total) This is free play in the steering system. You can do this procedure stood outside the car arm through window and watch the front wheel. Find the point of turning the wheel that at the same time moves the road wheel (very slightly) and then decrease the steering wheel movement and effort until the road wheel stops moving. If you can still move the steering wheel then there is wear. On mine the wear was/is in the steering column intermediate shaft. This is the shaft that fixes to the rack and then goes through the bulk head of the car down by your driving pedals and connects to the longer steering column shaft. You'll see it if you have a look down by the pedals. The universal joint in the engine compartment, just before connecting to the rack is the place they wear. Using a torch, shine it on the universal joint and rack connection, gently turn the steering wheel either way and look for movement in the top part of the shaft in relation to the lower part and rack connection. It might be easier with a mate turning the wheel and you looking/feeling for movement. Sorry that was so long winded but it's best to get it clear first time around. Are you running standard 15" wheels by the way?? If all that is ok then I'm stumped. I can only suggest tramlining on certain roads (the front wheels fall into the grooves of the road made by numerous trucks) The car seems to skip from one to the other if they are bad. It doesn't go with the power on/power off scenario though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 19, 2003 thanks for the discription yes i am running 15inch wheels. why??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 19, 2003 I've read that larger wheels (17" etc) can cause the tramlining effect to be increased. I think it will have to do with the offset as well but not sure. As you are on the standard 15" then it won't apply. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 19, 2003 ok so if my rack is starting to go is it a major thing to put right and how much? also what will happen if i leave it too long??? cheers joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 19, 2003 Well if it is the rack then you'll be better off changing the whole thing for a second hand one. They are made to last an awful long time though. Changing one isn't too difficult a job if it is manual and only slightly harder if it's a power steering version. If the intermediate shaft is worn, then it won't require too much work. A pinch bolt at the rack end needs loosening/taking out and then inside the car, another pinch bolt where the inter shaft joins the main column shaft. Some people can get the inter shaft out wihout dropping the main column. If you have to drop the column slightly, again, not difficult and only adds on a few minutes to the job really. Rack change may require the need for a splitter to separate the ball joints on the end of the steering arm from the hub carrier if the carefully aimed hammer blow doesn't work. It might be best to replace these with new items. In fact, the wear may be in these ball joints(track rod end) anyway so some inspection will be needed before diving in and replacing the whole rack. The rack is held on with two nuts and bolts to the subframe. You will need to jack the car up obviously to do this unless you have a pit. If it is the rack or shaft then leaving it will cause it to wear more and more. In fact, the wear rate will increase. If it is really sloppy then I would be inclined to replace the offending item quickly for safety sake. That and it will fail an MOT straight away. Not difficult jobs to do yourself, just awkward. Power steering rack you will need to loosen the subframe bolts to allow it to drop slightly giving you room for the ram to clear. Second hand prices?? You'll need to trawl the guys breaking cars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wes Posted November 19, 2003 Where do you get the intermediate shaft from????? Obviously pug but they aint funny with their prices that high. Is there any alternative supplier that i can get one from? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 19, 2003 Either GSF or Eurocarparts (can't remember) advertise a shaft for around £50. You will need to have a look though to see if it is the right sort as there appear to be a few different types around. Failing that, a breakers, but you take your chance that it will last. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 19, 2003 big n,,,,, i know its not the balljoint(trackrod ends) cos i had the tracking done the other day and they were fine, so it could be the rack itself or the intermediate shaft. how does the shaft were out????????? does it twist out of shape or somthing?????? and what do you mean by dropping the collom???? sounds scary if i needed to replace anyparts they would be new one`s as i dont trust second hand/scrap yard stuff. i see your in north yorks how far from leeds are you????? hint hint!!! thanks joe p.s do you know if pattern parts are as good as origional pug items regaring rack and shaft? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 20, 2003 The intermediate shaft wears out through dirt and grime getting in the universal joint hinges, ovalising the holes. This just leads to slack in the turning parts. It is usually because there is not a seal on this part although, on some there is a bellows which helps considerably. Dropping the column (if needed) does sound a LOT more complicated than it is. You take off the lower plastic cover from the steering wheel column, undo about four nuts (can't remember for sure) and then allow the column to drop under control a few inches whilst you remove the already disconnected inter shaft. It's a lot easier than you think. You don't remove the whole column as it is still attached to electrics etc. I reckon the most awkward bit is undoing the pinch bolt at the rack end as it is in the engine bay and with both hands in there it's a matter of feeling around. New parts will be expensive. People on hear are reporting between £50 and £100. As for pattern parts then I personally have had no problems with them (wishbones, speedo cables etc) but some people have. That is a choice for you really. Lastly I live V near to Boroughbridge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 21, 2003 ok so in your honest opinion (after all thats been said) what do you think could be my problem? and what can i do to fix it? and how much do you recon it would cost? thanks for everything joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wurzel 16 Posted November 21, 2003 Umm, mate I can't answer that. Without looking at the car, there is no way I can pinpoint the fault and to be honest wouldn't want to. It could be a costly mistake for you. Sorry. Have you found wear in the steering components at all, either the rack, or the intermediate shaft? There is enough info in this thread to spot any wear (if any at all), that may be lurking in your front suspension/steering components. As for costs then it all depends on if you do the work yourself, where you get components from, what components you need, tools you'll need if you do the job or labour if you get a garage to do it. For a VERY rough instance, IF it were the inter shaft worn and you took it to a Pug garage to get fixed and source the part, you'll be looking at around £100 to £130 ish (parts and labour). That is a very rough guess. I wouldn't even like to guess at a price for a new rack!! Getting a good second hand one from a scrappy and doing the job yourself will cost around £15. Come back with some feedback on the fault finding techniques and we'll go from there. I would offer to come and look but work at the moment is mental as we are forming up a new workshop from scratch including all the infrastructure, and I am away for the next few weekends which won't be any good to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 24, 2003 well id just like to say thank for all your help. its my day off tomorrow so ill look in to all you have said and ill get back to you keep em peeled on this post. thanks to everyone espesially BIG NICK Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joe Posted November 28, 2003 right got it sorted........ are you ready for the answer to my prob.... yep you were all right lower wish bone and it was the 1 i got replaced 18 months ago. i bow down to you all for having no faith....... thanks big nick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
