Err...a Little Help On First Start After Rebuild 1.6 8Valve

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

It has fuel, spark, air and compression. but won't start

Its a 1.6 8valve.that was runing before with everything that's now fitted back on, My rebuld is in my signature.

The pulse wire from the dizzy could be mixed up in the replacement plug i've fitted as here http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=146941&hl=

but it's easy to swap the connectors around and I've tried both and it still doesn't want to run.

It sometimes trys to start with help from the starter and lasts up to a couple of seconds before cutting out.

I'm getting a good spark, and I've had the injectors out, these were cleaned in December and the ANSU site says not to leave them too long as the cleaning fluid can cause them to stick over time. They're spraying but I don't know what to compare them to.

Compression is good with the new rings fitted and there's no vacuum leak that I can detect. All the pipes are connected and I've checked the timing belt again and both holes align up pefectly.

I followed the Haynes in the Ignition chapter to get it to run by finding the compression stroke on Cyl 1 (nearest the clutch as Haynes says) and aligning the single flywheel mark with the top timming plate notch. This gives you a rotor arm position which is pointing up slightly right about 1 O'clock when facing the dizzy face on. from that I've checked the plugs are connected to the cap correctly by working anti-clockwise with a firing order of 1,3,4,2.(again looking face on the dizzy)

I was supprised that the holes in the pulleys for the timing belt were no-where near when I was at TDC for Cylinder 1 as stated in the Haynes.

Is TDC for the timing belt on cylinder 4? I'm thinking I can't have this wrong as everything is keyed. The dizzy only fits one way as it's an offset groove in the cam, unless I'm mistaken?

The Pulse generator for the Dizzy is pulsing as the test on here http://www.dethomaso.fr/article-mesures-et-verifications-electriques-verifications-electrique-des-composants-du-systeme-d-allumage-65781909.html. (English at the bottom of that page)

I've not tested the Ignition module, but with me getting a good spark I'm thinking its either a timing or mixture issue.

I've also checked the blue temp sensor that is known to short out causing this symptom, but that's fine.

I did notice there's was no throttle response when trying to get it to rev, is there anyway of checking the wiring to the throttle swicth?

I'm running out of ideas but if anyone can think of anything else I might have missed it might be helpful.

 

Edit, I've also tried a spare Tach relay and was no different
.

Edited February 12, 2013 by ALEX

[welshpug 1,622]

XU is not pinned at tdc.

 

Dizzy has been seen upside down, terminals should point backwards.

 

 

You say you have fuel, but do you have injector pulse? (Should do if you have spark and wiring is good)

 

Tps can be tested easily with test light or multimeter however should not have a great effect at all on starting.

[DamirGTI 325]

There is a mark on a flywheel (single mark/dot) , which needs to be align with the 0 mark on the plate ..

 

Remove spark plugs and spin the engine by hand , and bring No. 1 piston (nearest the flywheel) near the TDC and remove the dizzy cap , on the dizzy housing you'll see an small dot on the top face stamped in aluminum - the rotor arm needs to point center towards the dot when the No.1 cylinder is @ 30deg. BTDC .. if not , check the timing belt ..

 

Also , could be an large air leak - check the plumbing ..

 

D

 

Try some known good AFM .. can do with the 1.9 one if you don't have 1.6 AFM , just for the check ..

Edited February 13, 2013 by DamirGTI

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

XU is not pinned at tdc.

"thanks for clearing this up"

 

Dizzy has been seen upside down, terminals should point backwards.

"Terminals pointing toward the bulkhead"

 

You say you have fuel, but do you have injector pulse? (Should do if you have spark and wiring is good)

"I tested the injectors by seprerating the whole rail with the injectors firing into a a couple of jars.

I'm assuming they need a vcuume to fire properly as not much came out of them but all were even) but they were pulsing.

I'm glad I checked though as I've a pintle cap missing on one injector. It must be in the exhaust as it's not in the bore or behind the valve after removing the inlet last night. I don't think its the cause of the not running problem though and they're sending me a spare cap from http://www.injectorcleaning.co.uk/index.htm"

 

Tps can be tested easily with test light or multimeter however should not have a great effect at all on starting.

Edited February 13, 2013 by ALEX

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

There is a mark on a flywheel (single mark/dot) , which needs to be align with the 0 mark on the plate ..

"I'm sure I've done this right"

 

Remove spark plugs and spin the engine by hand , and bring No. 1 piston (nearest the flywheel) near the TDC and remove the dizzy cap , on the dizzy housing you'll see an small dot on the top face stamped in aluminum - the rotor arm needs to point center towards the dot when the No.1 cylinder is @ 30deg. BTDC .. if not , check the timing belt .

"Never noticed a dot, I'll this check tonight"

The dizzy had been modified though with elongated slots (it's now more of a pair of forks now) alowing the timing to be advanced further than normal.

I thought it might have been because the locating tooth was missing on the old rotor arm allowing the arm to spin freely and it was a bodge fix.

I'm starting to think its the wrong dizzy now, I'll check the number tonight"

Also , could be an large air leak - check the plumbing ..

 

D

 

Try some known good AFM .. can do with the 1.9 one if you don't have 1.6 AFM , just for the check ..

"Cool I have a spare 1.9 AFM, but unsure it will do anything as the one thats fitted was working before and it's untampered with (top cover is still fixed with no marks around it)"

Edited February 13, 2013 by ALEX

[welshpug 1,622]

no they dont need a vacuum, you should have a visible spray pattern.

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

no they dont need a vacuum, you should have a visible spray pattern.

There is a spray but only about a table spoon came out of each pair (two in one jar) after about 5 seconds of turning,

[welshpug 1,622]

got 3 bar fuel pressure?

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

got 3 bar fuel pressure?

I dont have a pressure guage to test it.

I can hear that the pump builds pressure up quickly on ignition and cuts off (if the key is not turned further to turn it over).

I'm assuming the pressure switch is inside the pump?

Edited February 13, 2013 by ALEX

[welshpug 1,622]

no, there's a pressure regulator on the fuel rail, and just a non return valve in the pump.

 

you can test the regulator easily with a normal pump and a gauge, however you'll need a proper test gauge to see if the pump is providing enough.

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

The diaphram isn't broken in the regulator, that's all I know.

How do you do the test? I have a bike pump with a guage (shrader and presta connector) and a shock pump with a guage (Shrader screw on connector),

[DamirGTI 325]

The dizzy had been modified though with elongated slots

(it's now more of a pair of forks now) alowing the timing to be advanced

further than normal.

I thought it might have been because the locating tooth

was missing on the old rotor arm allowing the arm to spin freely and it

was a bodge fix.

 

Was it fine before like this ? or you've added this modified dizzy now during the engine rebuilding ?

 

D

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

Was it fine before like this ? or you've added this modified dizzy now during the engine rebuilding ?

 

D

Same dizzy and from memory it was bolted about middle of the slot anyway when it ran.

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Have you properly bled the fuel system up to the fuel rail since it all went back together by hard wiring the pump for 10+ seconds to fill the fuel rail?

 

g

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

Have you properly bled the fuel system up to the fuel rail since it all went back together by hard wiring the pump for 10+ seconds to fill the fuel rail?

 

g

 

Good suggestion, I'll try that tonight.

Had the tank off so could be it.

[daza4 24]

I know this is going to sound stupid but if youve had the tank out - check the fuel pipes have gone back on right way round.

 

- im trying tk think outside the box here! Lol

[kyepan 291]

an inline fuel pressure gauge has helped me diagnose a few tricky problems, including a non return valve in the pump and a slightly iffy fuel pressure regulator.. They are cheap too.. If you get stuck

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

an inline fuel pressure gauge has helped me diagnose a few tricky problems, including a non return valve in the pump and a slightly iffy fuel pressure regulator.. They are cheap too.. If you get stuck

Might have to invest in one of these, how much are they?

 

I know this is going to sound stupid but if youve had the tank out - check the fuel pipes have gone back on right way round.

 

- im trying tk think outside the box here! Lol

All sugestions are helpful, but I would have thought it wouldn't even try to run if I'd have got these wrong.

 

 

 

You might be getting the idea of the laidback approch of this restoration.

With it been cold and dark on the evenings and that the car is parked the wrong way round for the garage lights to be of any use, I've not had much time on it since last weekend.

I had a go last night having recived a spare pintle cap that was missing and it fired up for about 5 seconds (a bit rough, like idle was too low) then it cut out, I tried to rev it but I think the extra air caused it to cut out.

It wouldn't start eaisily after and when it did it would only last for a couple of seconds at most.

I have a couple of spare 1.9 AFM in the shed I'm going to try next as I'm thinking it's a mixture issue rather than timing.

Edited February 15, 2013 by ALEX

[Carbs4me 45]

Have you changed the engine? or is it the orginal one?

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

Have you changed the engine? or is it the orginal one?

 

Evrything is the same except the block.

crank regrind, new bearings, new rings etc..

[Carbs4me 45]

Running for 5 Seconds and cutting out seems like an issue i had, but it was a case of changing the ECU for the right engine... Although im not sure if changing the block would have the same effect as its the componets that im sure would matter...

 

Is everything your using now from the car when you got it?

[Carbs4me 45]

did you check the plugs like TPS/AFM

 

you can get the car to run without the AFM but it smokes.... alot

 

Is the spark weak?

 

Are the plug leads on in the right formation.

 

It diffrently sounds like there is something a miss with the eletric's.

 

Long shot but give the fuel relay a tap while your trying to start it and inpect further as it might be not working correctly and when releasing the key it might unstick... hence cutting the fuel supply off, which will result in immediate pressure loss

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

I did the ignition components test with the multimeter found in the Haynes.

I'm not getting a minimum of 9 volts to the AFM, getting about 0.3v when the engine is cranked.

This is a wire I think to earth M18. it disapears under the battery tray, I think it might be the earth wire to the gearbox? but I'll check tonight.

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

Is the Haynes manual wrong??

See photo

 

 

The green wire in the photo is supposed to be wire 18A (according to Haynes) which is 12volt live when the engine is turning.

Mine isn't as it looks like an earth wire, I've checked and it is, it goes to earth on the gearbox before joining 2 other green wires halfway up the loom.

So is it important if the polarity that feeds the AFM wrong way round? as I'm not getting a live feed from that connection on the AFM plug.

I checked the next wire with earth (the white one, which is supposed to be M18 earth according to Haynes). And that gives me 12 volts when cranking.

Looks like mine have been mixed up from factory as I didn't do it or the Haynes is wrong (page 96 of the workshop manual), as the car ran before, I'm thinking it shouldn't matter anway.

I don't know how to get the spade connectors out of the plug without damaging them, but I do need to repair that frayed one.

This is still connected up and I'm not sure this is the cause of my problem either.

 

It's not got the better of me yet... but almost

Edited February 18, 2013 by ALEX

[welshpug 1,622]

M18 would be the earth wire.