Offroad Suspension

[zeolite 0]

I am preparing a 205 for Autocrossing. This is basically a sprint on a temporary track made in a grass/stubbly field for the day. It turns both ways (unlike autograss) and I was wondering what to do about the suspension. Most cars tend to run good standard road setups. I have been advised to get gravel spec dampers for the rear as 205s are supposed to be a bit bouncy at the back. (I haven't actually driven one properly) Traction is a major issue so going too stiff at the front is gonna lose me time.

Anyone any thoughts?

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

No experience of racing at all but 205 GTi suspension is hard to start with and most road kits lower and stiffen it so I doubt you want to go with any of the standard road set-ups...

 

Rob

[Guest Gar]

Fit shocks and springs off a lower spec. model. My 1.1 handles like a boat and can drive over almost anything without knocking the tracking out (clipped a kerb at 50mph)!

[Guest Butler]

Try the car first, see if it understeers or oversteers too much. If its ok leave it.

 

If it understeers, soften the front or stiffen the back. Opposite for oversteer.

 

Standard GTI setup would be a good start, don't go softer unless you get to much understeer that you can't otherwise dial out.

 

Rally gravel setups are pretty firm, probably to firm for grass.

[Adi 0]

If it understeers, soften the front or stiffen the back. Opposite for oversteer

 

ooooooooooooooooooo you listen well

[zeolite 0]

I have heard of gravel rallyists disconnecting the front anti-roll bar. Is that just a story or would it have positive benefits for traction?

[Adi 0]

I have heard of gravel rallyists disconnecting the front anti-roll bar.

 

A gravel suspension set up.....doesn't really need anti roll bars. The cars move around very easily due to the surface. So the main work is done with the springs/dampers.

 

But I have heard of a lot of people disconnecting the front roll bars on 306s etc for track days.

All this does is move all the roll stiffness to the rear and produces a better feel for turn in. A much better way though......would be to keep the front roll bar....and increase the rear roll stiffness.

[Guest Butler]

ooooooooooooooooooo you listen well

A combination of listening to you and playing Gran Turismo.

[zeolite 0]

OK. So my plan of keeping the standard road struts and springs while uprating to gravel spec Billies sounds about right. I was going to go and make a rear strut brace as well.

 

Do you get Pugs in GT3?

[Adi 0]

So my plan of keeping the standard road struts and springs while uprating to gravel spec Billies sounds about right. I was going to go and make a rear strut brace as well

 

The better the dampers....the better the car will not only handle the bumps......but the corners as well.

 

The stiffer rear dampers will really help........though you may find you need to uprate the front springs/dampers as well after a few events. With the weight of the engine of the front axle......it doesn't take too bigger bump to start making the front dampers bottom out. When that happens....the front end will bounce.

 

 

A combination of listening to you and playing Gran Turismo

 

There's never enough adjustment in Gran Tourismo. No matter how extreme you set the cars up.....they still plough on. It really annoys me that

[Guest Bigj]

Yes its true that "rallyists" disconnect the anti roll bars

 

In fact I have no anti roll bars on my rally car.

 

One of the problems with 205's and gravel/forest tyres is the clearance between the front strut and the tyre.

This is one reason why most gravel cars run coil overs.

The best way to go IMHO is Bilstein coilovers.

The most cost effective way is probably to go with Gaz coilovers.

I think its Shenpar that do a complete Gaz kit with both tarmac and gravel springs for around £475

 

HTH

 

John

[Adi 0]

I was going to go and make a rear strut brace as well

 

A rear brace will be of no help. There are no suspension turretts like the front strut tops. So there is no rear shell flex to reduce in that way.

Of course a roll cage would reduce the shell flex

[zeolite 0]

Quote

"A rear brace will be of no help. There are no suspension turretts like the front strut tops."

 

Doh. Of course not! Showing my lack of knowledge of torsion bars!

The roll cage is on the shopping list but 2nd hand ones are hard to find. I am considering making my own and I know it is not FIA or RACMSA accepted.

 

Quote

"One of the problems with 205's and gravel/forest tyres is the clearance between the front strut and the tyre."

 

I will be running 14" 175 70s and if its really wet and muddy 155 70s can't imagine there will be a problem with those. What size of tyres are the rally folks running?

 

Can't afford coil overs. This is a budget effort. The car only cost £150! The big money goes into my Fiesta rally car. It has coil overs and a Quaife box (£££££)

 

Thanks for your help though guys!

[Guest Bigj]

Quote

"One of the problems with 205's and gravel/forest tyres is the clearance between the front strut and the tyre."

 

I will be running 14" 175 70s and if its really wet and muddy 155 70s can't imagine there will be a problem with those. What size of tyres are the rally folks running?

The rally boys generally use 15" tyres on gravel

 

HTH

 

J

[Adi 0]

One of the problems with 205's and gravel/forest tyres is the clearance between the front strut and the tyre.

 

This is one reason why most gravel cars run coil overs.

 

 

Not sure I understand this one. If anyone uses coilovers especially 2.5inch type......the spring can start to go behind the tyre. That will have even more probs that a normal strut with 6" coil.

 

Are you saying there is a clearance problem with the width of the tyre and the main tube of the strut.....or the height of the tyre and the lower spring pan??

[Guest Bigj]

There is a problem with large diameter and High profile gravel tyres hitting the lower spring pan when using normal springs and struts.

 

With coilovers the springs and spring pan are smaller diameter and it is not a problem

 

J

[Adi 0]

There is a problem with large diameter and High profile gravel tyres hitting the lower spring pan when using normal springs and struts.

 

Maybe that is an isolated prob rather than the norm.

 

All wheels/tyres have to be passed at type approval. The tyres have to have enough clearance to be able to take snow chains. That same clearance should be able to take larger profile tyres.

 

I have seen many the same system used on the 205 and 206 and there has been sufficient clearance.

[zeolite 0]

Was at an autocross near Melrose yesreday and there were a few pugs. One was running 15" wheels and michelin gravel tyres. Dunno what the profile was (70 75?) but it would have hit the spring pan but for the car having coilovers. The cars on 14"s didn't have the same problem.

 

there was a 205 challenge car there as a promo for next year's Scottish 205 challenge. Pretty much standard 1.6gti apart from the cage and diff. They seem to be pretty strong cars.