White Smoke (new) And Oil Leak - Rings Or Dizzy O Seal?

[DamirGTI 327]

Post it on my email : damir_k79@yahoo.com .. and i'll make an upload so that we can see the picture here ..

 

We still need to chase the source of malfunction though , even if fitting used engine as (suppose) you'll be using your old fueling/ignition system components right ?

(me guessing that , possibly , the mixture on this cylinder went lean an did the piston melting .. this can happen again on this the "new" engine as well if not rectified ... might be partially blocked injector which was the cause of the problem ..)

 

This really depends on how long you wish to keep this car , if for longer and if you have some money to spend on it then the by all means i'd do the engine freshening up .. especially because it'll be easier , with the engine out of the car ..

 

so i would do :

new timing belt + water pump + tensioner

head gasket + new head bolts

head -> decarbonizing (ports/chambers/valves) , valve lapping , head skim (always-always !! always skim the head when replacing head gasket ..) adjusting valve clearances (do the adjusting at the end when the head is bolted back on the block and all the head bolts torqued down ..)

block -> decarbonize piston crowns (take care not to choke the rings with carbon though ..) , new crank seals , big end bearings (optional - new liner O ring seals)

and gaskets/seals generally (sump gasket , inlet/exhaust manifold gaskets etc. ..)

new oli + oil filter and coolant

ignition/fueling tune up after the repairs and job done

 

Damir

[DamirGTI 327]

.. did the picture upload , here they are :

 

 

 

 

 

Now , this does look like some really f*** up , uncontrolled combustion - excessive heat cos it's molten off the edge areas towards the center .. is there any visible damage on the other 3 pistons ? was this engine ever tuned/modified or something like that ?! overheated ?

 

Id suggest that you get injectors tested (mark this injector from the affected cylinder especially) on ultrasonic machine - but do not clean them , measure resistance first , then leak/pressure test them , then spray pattern/volume test ... then clean them ..

Also , take a look if you've had by any chance a few grade hotter spark plug on this cylinder ... check the head as well (combustion chamber for discoloration , valves/valve seats for improper sealing , cracks - this might dilute cylinder lubrication , inlet manifold gasket - leaky inlet gasket might cause this cylinder to go lean)

 

Damir

Edited October 26, 2010 by DamirGTI

[lapazlane 0]

Post it on my email : damir_k79@yahoo.com .. and i'll make an upload so that we can see the picture here ..

 

We still need to chase the source of malfunction though , even if fitting used engine as (suppose) you'll be using your old fueling/ignition system components right ?

(me guessing that , possibly , the mixture on this cylinder went lean an did the piston melting .. this can happen again on this the "new" engine as well if not rectified ... might be partially blocked injector which was the cause of the problem ..)

 

This really depends on how long you wish to keep this car , if for longer and if you have some money to spend on it then the by all means i'd do the engine freshening up .. especially because it'll be easier , with the engine out of the car ..

 

so i would do :

new timing belt + water pump + tensioner

head gasket + new head bolts

head -> decarbonizing (ports/chambers/valves) , valve lapping , head skim (always-always !! always skim the head when replacing head gasket ..) adjusting valve clearances (do the adjusting at the end when the head is bolted back on the block and all the head bolts torqued down ..)

block -> decarbonize piston crowns (take care not to choke the rings with carbon though ..) , new crank seals , big end bearings (optional - new liner O ring seals)

and gaskets/seals generally (sump gasket , inlet/exhaust manifold gaskets etc. ..)

new oli + oil filter and coolant

ignition/fueling tune up after the repairs and job done

 

Damir

 

TIME FOR AN UPDATE and a couple of questions on tools.

 

I've got the engine I referred to earlier. My 106 Diesel seems sufficiently sorted for the moment (and coping great with the cold weather here) so I can start thinking about my beloved again. Need to get some kit now so some basic questions:

 

1 Am looking to get a used engine stand - looks like I can get one for around £25 on e-bay - am presuming this wold be better than an engine cradle as can rotate engine? Is getting a stand a good move to make life easier?

 

2 What do I ask for to get a suitable bit for removing head bolts (1/2" M11 male star bit?) - think I have worked out that M11 is non-standard so where do I go?

 

3 Will I need a special tool to lock flywheel while I change timing belt, as engine will be out of car?

 

4 Can anyone (Damir? ) suggest or refer me to a good tool list to do the work suggested in last but one post (quoted above)?

 

Note - the engine I got was complete except for exhaust manifold so I can use the injectors on that one. Once I have overhauled my new engine and put it in (and perhaps taken the opportunity to do some other stuff, like fit a quaife ATB, renew the engine mountings, refurb the rear beam etc), I may then feel tempted to sort out the worn engine and then investigate the suspect injector.

 

5 One final beginner question - how do I physically mount the block on an engine stand

[lapazlane 0]

Ok, have been digesting what Damir said. I think I am going to get the old engine out and rebuild that, keeping the one I bought as a back up in case everything goes pear-shaped. Below is plan for what I think I need to do - comments appreciated:

 

Definite to buy:

 

New big-ends

new main bearings

new piston rings (buy tool eg )

new valve stem seals (buy valve spring compressor)

new liner seals

new crank seals

full gasket set

new water pump (got one)

new timing belt (fitted new tensioner and sprocket June 09, 30,000 miles ago)

new shims (as required)

new mounts (engine and box)

? new valves as required

? new valve guides as required

new head bolts (buy M11 male torq bit 1/2" or 3/8" - I've got 3/8" and 1/2" torque wrenchs and a 1/2" torque angle gauge)

 

Possibly buy:

 

new oil pump

new oil pump chain and sprocket

new con-rod bolts

 

Machining:

 

skim head

pressure test

hardness test

test injectors

 

Jobs to do:

 

re-lap valves (buy grinding paste and tool)

de-coke

Remove all deposits from piston crowns

complete clean

 

Jobs to possibly do:

 

paint block

paint head

hone liners

polish/paint cam cover

paint sump

sand blast / paint exhaust manifold

 

I will have a look at head and see if I can tell anything about the valves (am suspicious about valve wear on the dodgy cylinder, but never had any problems with blue smoke).

 

Question - what valve spring compressor do I need/where from?

 

If I hone the liners - would I get some thing like this - here

 

If I can get block out and the remove pistons and get valves out before Christmas, am thinking I can spend some productive time at home in Pompey lapping and cleaning (and maybe even clean/spray block - can I really clean it in my dishwasher?)

 

Thanks, Jon

[DamirGTI 327]

Definite to buy:

 

New big-ends - yes (plastigage measurement first for dimension)

new main bearings - yes (as above ..)

new piston rings (buy tool eg ) - yes , but this tool really isn't needed .. can fit them with fingers and three feeler gauges .. and just slide in the grooves , but make sure you clean the grooves throughly and arrange ring gaps as specified ..

new valve stem seals (buy valve spring compressor) - yes .. "valve spring compressor" not needed if doing with the head removed ...

new liner seals - yes

new crank seals - yes

full gasket set - yes (the above seals should be included within the gasket set ..)

new water pump (got one) - yes

new timing belt (fitted new tensioner and sprocket June 09, 30,000 miles ago) - yes

new shims (as required) - yes , but measure valve clearances on the end , when the head is bolted back on the block and all the bolts tighten to final torque .. then measure and re-shim the valves (you'll need micrometer of course .. and feeler gauges ..)

new mounts (engine and box) - not bad idea , but can reuse old ones if they're in good nick ..

? new valves as required - get them checked/tested for straightness first .. then buy as required .. analyze the ones from the blown cylinder especially ..

? new valve guides as required - yes , buy new ones .. OE bronze guides ..

new head bolts (buy M11 male torq bit 1/2" or 3/8" - I've got 3/8" and 1/2" torque wrenchs and a 1/2" torque angle gauge) - yes

 

Possibly buy:

 

new oil pump - not needed ..

new oil pump chain and sprocket - as above

new con-rod bolts - good idea , i would , so .. yes

 

Machining:

 

skim head - yes

pressure test - yes

hardness test - not needed

test injectors - defiantly !!! especially the one from the affected cylinder -> this really is a must

 

Jobs to do:

 

re-lap valves (buy grinding paste and tool) - yes , fine grinding paste and hand lapping with stick

de-coke - yes (Acetone + carb cleaner are great combo for fast carbon removing ..)

Remove all deposits from piston crowns - yes , use softer scotchbrte pads

complete clean - yes -> for all the engine parts cleaning before assembling with new parts , use - brake cleaning spray ... buy a few extra cans ..

 

Jobs to possibly do:

 

paint block - i wouldn't ! .. but that's me ..

paint head - as above ..

hone liners - yes

polish/paint cam cover - as above .. if you wish

paint sump - as above ..

sand blast / paint exhaust manifold - sand blast - no , paint - as above (will need some high temp paint .. but even that one will burn out eventually ..)

 

I will have a look at head and see if I can tell anything about the valves (am suspicious about valve wear on the dodgy cylinder, but never had any problems with blue smoke).

 

Question - what valve spring compressor do I need/where from? - dunno , i have a DIY valve spring compressor !

 

If I hone the liners - would I get some thing like this - here - will do , but i'd rather buy this type -> http://www.newmantools.com/flexhone/ ...

 

If I can get block out and the remove pistons and get valves out before Christmas, am thinking I can spend some productive time at home in Pompey lapping and cleaning (and maybe even clean/spray block - can I really clean it in my dishwasher?)

 

Thanks, Jon

 

You'll need one new piston and liner !! .. or used one from a spare engine

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Like this :

 

1 stage - start tightening the bolts up to 30Nm , always one by one in sequence (start from the middle and move outwards - from bolt No1 to the bolt No10 ..)

2 stage - next tight up to 55Nm , again start to tight from the bolt No1 and move outwards to the bolt No10

3 stage - now , loosen each bolt 1/8th turn in reverse order of tightening sequence , so start loosening from the last bolt , bolt No10 and move inwards to the bolt No1 , when you've finish with loosening the last one , bolt No1 , start tightening as you've done above set the torque wrench to 55Nm and tight back each bolt starting from bolt No1 and outwards to the bolt No10 (so first undone all bolts in reverse order of the tightening sequence by 1/8 turn and then , when you've loosen them all , tight back to 55Nm bolt by bolt starting form the bolt No1 and proceed further to the bolt No10 !)

4 stage - torque each bolt up to 80Nm in the same order - from the center , from the bolt No1 to the bolt No10

5 stage - torque each bolt up to 95Nm as above - from the center outwards

 

When you've finish with last 5 stage wait a few hours and then loosen all bolts (one by one) by 1/4 turn in reverse order of the tightening sequence (as you've done in 3 stage ..) from bolt No 10 to the bolt No1 and when you've loosen them all , torque them back from bolt No1 to the bolt No10 to the 95Nm in outward direction/sequence .

(you can do this last sequence/settle if you wish but it's not essential , you decide )

 

In between the 3-4 and 4-5 stages make a short pause (a few min , 2-3min. ..) , and print the head bolt tightening sequence on a piece of paper so that you can place it in front of you when you tight the bolts , just in case that you don't make a mistake/mix up the bolt tightening order when tightening them from bolt No1 up to bolt No10

Oil/grease the bolt threads and area beneath the bolt heads with moly grease , copper grease or even engine oil if you like , and always go nice and slow with the tightening - take your time don't rush , nice and easy and you'll be fine

 

Ok ?

 

(and don't forget to refit the big spacer and double washers on the bolt No.8 !! the bolt above the water pump)

 

Damir

 

Head bolt tightening sequence/order :

 

 

 

 

You'll need one new piston and liner !! .. or used one from a spare engine

 

Damir

 

1 I have to put the head back on so I can lift whole engine out with hoist - in putting head back, I squashed the nearside rear locatin dowel into the head - is this a problem? if so, how can I get it out (ask machine shop when I take head for slimming etc?)? I also suashed the other dowel on offside rear but I got that one out.

 

2 Can I use this need to put head back as an opportunity to practice doing the head up properly as per Damir's recommendation (see below for link to it) - I will be renewing head bolts.

 

2 I can't get the battery tray off - I've undone to the 2 bolts into the bay next to inner wing and every other bolt I can see but it feels welded in - I can see the nearsid engine mount through the battery tray, below it.

 

 

Link to guide to removing head bolts is here

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

There are another 2 bolts that go into the chassis leg holding on the batt tray- look from under the car and you can see them.

[DamirGTI 327]

1 I have to put the head back on so I can lift whole engine out with hoist - in putting head back, I squashed the nearside rear locatin dowel into the head - is this a problem? if so, how can I get it out (ask machine shop when I take head for slimming etc?)? I also suashed the other dowel on offside rear but I got that one out.

 

2 Can I use this need to put head back as an opportunity to practice doing the head up properly as per Damir's recommendation (see below for link to it) - I will be renewing head bolts.

 

2 I can't get the battery tray off - I've undone to the 2 bolts into the bay next to inner wing and every other bolt I can see but it feels welded in - I can see the nearsid engine mount through the battery tray, below it.

 

 

Link to guide to removing head bolts is here

 

1 .. long nose pliers or pick/hook (don't forget to remove ,and store, oil gauze filter out from the head before taking it to skimming .. otherwise it'll be full of machining , metal particles .. but you'll need to clean it anyway prior to assembling ..)

 

2 Yes

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Thanks to both of you. I think I have found a really good machinists today, and they are the closest one to me, only 10 mins away! The guy spent about an hour talking through stuff whilst pricing up parts. Again, I think I am benefiting from the willingness of people to help because of their own fond memories. Got a lot on with work this week but am aiming to have engine out and apart by beginning of next week - we shall see.

[lapazlane 0]

Thanks to both of you. I think I have found a really good machinists today, and they are the closest one to me, only 10 mins away! The guy spent about an hour talking through stuff whilst pricing up parts. Again, I think I am benefiting from the willingness of people to help because of their own fond memories. Got a lot on with work this week but am aiming to have engine out and apart by beginning of next week - we shall see.

 

Hopelessly optimistic of course. Got held up trying to get O/S drive shaft out - intermediate bearing was well and truly seized in - have succeeded in getting the bloody thing out now - what a relief, can get on with getting engine out now. I ended up taking off the lower rear engine mount link and then the 4 bolts off the intermediate bearing bracket, then I prized the bracket off the 2 locating dowels on the block and gave it a good hammering with a lump hammer until the drive shaft came out the final drive. Then had to give it a good few more whacks with said lump hammer to get bracket off the bearing which is fercked now. I ended up managing to hammer out the bearing casing so that you can see the actual bearings inside. Will try to post a pic if I can. Even now I couldn't get the bearing fully back in the bracket unless I gave it a massive hammering - I guess it is deformed enough by losing its shoulder to stop it going right in.

 

I am presuming it's possible to just replace the bearing but where do I get one from?

 

Is it going to be practical to replace it with the drive shaft still in-situ, attached to the hub, as I don't want to go to the ball ache of getting the hub off unless I have to?

[DamirGTI 327]

.. yes , you can replace the bearing (read the numbers from the bearing and go to SKF , or similar bearing shop ..) but you'll need an long bearing extractor/puller in order to do so ... doubt you'll have one (it really must be long type !!) but check/ask @ the local garages , someone might help you out with that issue .. or might consider tool renting ...

 

For pressing the new bearing - cool the shaft and heat up the bearing (coffee/tea cooker will do ..) and press in with some tube & hammer ..

 

Damir

 

EDIT : if you can't source the bearing extractor/puller , can cut the bearing with an angle grinder , but carefully .. just one bit and then break it in half with a chisel ...

 

And , yes , you'll have to remove the shaft out from the hub completely ..

Edited December 22, 2010 by DamirGTI

[lapazlane 0]

How do I remove the valves from the head without a valve spring compressor?

 

I have got the head off (can't see any signs of warping), cam shaft off (looks ok I think), buckets and shims off (and been careful to keep them in right order).

 

I also got the dowel out that I forced into the block

 

I snapped a bolt retaining the thermostat cover when i was taking it off to have a look at the thermostat (got the cover off). There's less than 2 mm of the thread sticking out and bit mangled - is the best way to get it out drilling it out? Should I just ask machinist to do this when I get head skimmed etc?

 

This also means I got the engine and box out (by myself) and now got box, clutch, flywheel, starter etc off - all for the first time, so feeling pleased with myself at the moment

[lapazlane 0]

We use to do that at a car mechanic garages when we was in a hurry (was no time for removing them with the spring compressor one by one ..) ... but i wouldn't recommend this option as you can loose the parts (collets/caps and they are really bitch to find afterwards you loose them !!) and you can also damage the valves/head surfaces , it's best to use an spring compressor for removing the valves out ..

 

Rgs !

Damir

 

Above is in relation to this - 'its possible u use a socket and a small extension bar, am smash it hard with a hammer but its not advisible, the taper on the collets makes them spring out, ive witnessed it being done but when i tried i always got one half of the collet stuck'

 

So the answer is yes, basically I do have to get a valve spring compressor but I can get on with stripping down the block, finding out what the rings are like on the melted piston and cleaning up the engine bay etc, while I sort out getting the tool.

[lapazlane 0]

Above is in relation to this - 'its possible u use a socket and a small extension bar, am smash it hard with a hammer but its not advisible, the taper on the collets makes them spring out, ive witnessed it being done but when i tried i always got one half of the collet stuck'

 

So the answer is yes, basically I do have to get a valve spring compressor but I can get on with stripping down the block, finding out what the rings are like on the melted piston and cleaning up the engine bay etc, while I sort out getting the tool.

 

 

Or in fact the answer is no, I don't have to use a spring compressor it seems. I use a 24mm 1/2" socket and very tentatively struck it on the spring retainer, with a rag over the socket and some more around the head, focussing on short sharp blows, using a lump hammer, rather than heavy blows, and have managed to get them all out with no lost half collets and no damage. I'll need a compressor to get them back in of course but I can either get the machinist to put them back in (as I may get them to relap the valves anyway, once they've checked none of them are bent), or get one and do it myself, but at least now I can finish striping the head and get it skimmed etc.

[lapazlane 0]

Just a very quick update to say I'm back from work related travels and back in the game. Got some more tools now and got the key to where i was working on the motor before so can get on with it again (once I've got the clutch and drive shaft on my 106 Diesel fitted). The 106 will be good practice for me getting the drive shaft off - need to sort the intermediate bearing on the O/S driveshaft on the 205, as I ended up damaging it because it was seized on.