White Smoke (new) And Oil Leak - Rings Or Dizzy O Seal?

[lapazlane 0]

Last night I was going fast on motorway from Darlington, floored it and felt something go in engine (standard 1990 205 GTi 1.9), and loads of white smoke out the back and oil everywhere round the dizzy side of engine.

 

No coolant loss. Coolant and oil temp normal. Oil pressure normal.

 

Had been running great except for maybe bit rich - plugs seem oiled up now, especially driver side closest to cam belt - thick oily carbon deposit (number 4?). BUT I think it's been running rich because it runs quite cool, so never gets up to high enough temp for SAD to close off (unless standing in traffic when fan cuts in and then revs drop from 2050 to 1000 as they should).

 

I put some old plugs in this morning and 2L of oil. It's still smoky (white, NOT blue or black), though less so, and running very rough and noisy. oil level did not appear to drop during time I got it up to running temperature. There is white smoke (burning oil?) coming from the passenger side of head, front and back, so around the area where the dizzy joins the head.

 

Am planning to take to garage for compression check on Monday.

 

Have had car for last 15 months. Think engine was from a 309 GTi so don't know history, but had been running really sweet (using some oil but nothing excessive and clean exhaust, averaging about 30-32 mpg on fast motorway runs and bit less on local journeys)

 

Am hoping it’s not the head gasket, but fear its a piston ring, which I guess is just as bad. Could it just be a failed O ring seal from dizzy to head causing all this? Can i use it until I get it fixed - how long for, and what are my options (need to keep costs down).

 

Can anyone recommend any good garages near to Catterick who will provide the right loving attention my pug deserves?

 

Am just a learner, so any help much appreciated. Cheers

[DamirGTI 327]

Might be gasket in between the head and thermostat housing , No. 10 on the diagram :

 

http://www.miamistu.co.uk/pug/GB/205F/1/13E52A.HTM

 

... there's water and oil channels inside the thermostat housing , so , try to replace the gasket ..

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Thanks very much for the quick reply.

 

1 Can I use Loctite 5699 gasket sealant (I can get this from Halfrauds tomorrow)

 

2 Is it straight forward to remove thermostat housing from head? Presumably I have to drain cooling system first?

 

2 So you think NOT likely to be the O ring as shown on schematic below (reference no. 2)

 

http://www.miamistu.co.uk/pug/GB/205N/5/59A50A.HTM

 

Thanks

[DamirGTI 327]

1 yes , RTV gasket sealant will be fine

2 ditto , yes , you'll need to drain the coolant .. but not all , just 50% of coolant out from the system will be enough to permit you working on the thermostat housing without coolant spill .. dismantling isn't hard , it's just a matter of undoing a few bolts and hoses .. easy ..

3 could be that as well , easy to test that though - remove the dizzy out (mark the position of the dizzy first) , clean the O ring area with solvent , apply an layer of RTV sealant around the O ring area on the dizzy , fit back , tighten the nuts and go for a spin .. if it was leaky O ring , the RTV sealant should seal up the leak ..

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Damir - thanks very much. Will try that tomorrow - at least I will feel I am doing something and will have eliminated both those possibilities.

 

Am still concerned (yes I am a born worrier so probably should have got a Nissan Micra) that it could be the following, if I have understood correctly:

 

1 failed piston ring

2 head gasket

3 cracked head

 

Would the fact that I felt something suddenly 'go' when I was at high speed last night point more towards a dizzy or thermostat casing gasket going, than the more serious options?

 

Will check tomorrow to see if water hoses are solid when engine running (ie pressured indicating HG failure)

 

Thanks again for the help. Jon

[DamirGTI 327]

Well , if it's a head gasket or cracked liner/head , usually (but not always) you'll see traces of oil inside the coolant expansion tank , also creamy looking oil colour on the dipstick and oil filler neck , and puffs of white smoke out of the exhaust ..

 

Got any of these ?

 

But do remember , early stages of the burnt head gasket or cracked head/liner passes unnoticed , so the engine might perform just fine in those early stages of failure and compression tester wont show differences in compression readings .. on the other hand , chemical block/leak tester will find a problem if it's there ..

 

Keep an eye on the coolant level inside the expansion tank ..

 

Damir

Edited October 16, 2010 by DamirGTI

[lapazlane 0]

Ive certainly got white smoke but think I've got a small split in breather pipe out of oil filler (towards rear of bay) which I reduced a bit and I've also just checked and number 4 cylinder not firing - hence sounding like an air cooled VW - will swap HT lead for an old one tomorrow and clean up distributor cap (got covered in oil). I ran it up to normal temp and no overheating - could still squeeze radiator hose on passenger side ok. White smoke seems less bad now (and it's quite a cold night). WIll see what I can sort out tomorrow.

[DamirGTI 327]

certainly got white smoke

 

.. out from the exhaust ? or the engine bay ?

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

.. out from the exhaust ? or the engine bay ?

 

Damir

 

Both - exhaust and from somewhere round engine - thinks it's dizzy side (ie passenger side). Am wondering if I could have blown rocker cover gasket?

[DamirGTI 327]

.. i see , well , then do the compression and leak/sniff test (obviously , will need testing equipment to do so .. so try @ the near garage ..)

 

As for leaks on/around the engine itself , oil leaks as particularly , you'll need to wash i.e. clean/degrease the engine first ... then , start it up and look for leaks around gaskets , manifold/housing joints ...

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

OK. Won't have access to a steam cleaner tomorrow but am I ok to spray brake cleaner over engine and clean up with paper towel? Am hoping I will be able to sort misfire and maybe reseal the dizzy O ring and thermostat cover gaskets with loctite, and see where that gets me.

 

Am assuming I will be ok to do the 35 mile round trip to Darlington to get the loctite if I keep the revs below 3000?

[DamirGTI 327]

Yes , of course , brake cleaner is in fact very good for degreasing .. can use that without a doubt ... if wanted to steam clean it , be careful , wrap up all the ignition and fueling (just injectors) components and electrical connectors prior to washing the engine (moisture gets everywhere , and trapped inside say some ignition connector can make problems even when it dries off ! .. causing misfiring and stuff like that ..) .. after the washing up , unwrap , and spray WD-40 on the connectors/ignition components (wrapping will protect connectors/ignition components from moisture , but for a piece of mind apply WD-40 after the washing up..)

 

Can do the dizzy O ring and thermostat housing gasket , but if you've got white smoke out from the exhaust (with the engine running @ operating temp) that'll mean it burns coolant (blown head gasket fire rings .. or cracked liner/head)

 

Really don't know , but , if you must do the trip with this car , prepare yourself for the unexpected -> pop a few bottles of water in the boot , and buy an bottle of radiator sealant (buy the "powder type" sealant , and do not fill entire bottle inside the system !! just one quarter will do ..) ... and stop from time to time and recheck the coolant level ... if it goes bad , i.e. starts smoking/using coolant excessively , stop and add radiator sealant inside and this'll be fine to get you home .. (this stuff sealed cracked cylinder liner and head gasket once on my cars .. so , it works ..)

Important note though !! - each and every time you use radiator sealant , do so only if it's really necessary , and do not keep it inside the engine/coolant system more than a week or two maxi - flush the coolant system afterwards with clean water (under pressure preferably ..) until all the rad seal stuff comes out of the system ... then fix the engine ..

 

But , really , do the compression and leak test

 

Damir

Edited October 17, 2010 by DamirGTI

[lapazlane 0]

UPDATE - No 4 cylinder (cam belt end) seems to not be firing - I tried another HT lead, swapped spark with a working one from other cylinder) and cleaned and dried distributor cap (itself replaced a few months ago) and no difference - ie if I remove HT lead, no change in engine running, but if I remove any of the others rev drop etc as you would expect - why would this cylinder not be firing - loss of compression due to failed piston ring or HG?

 

Having cleaned engine up to, as you advised, it does look like there is smoke coming from around No 4 as well as the other end.

 

Still no coolant loss but with the header tank cap off whilst warming up, there were constant (and lots) of bubbles coming up through the coolant, like it was boiling (it wasn't).

 

Still getting white smoke out of exhaust with oily smell (not huge amounts, but definite,and increases with revs, and wasn't there before Fri night.

 

Have NOT done anything to dizzy or thermostat housing gaskets.

 

Next move - am trying to sort out through work contacts getting compression check/sniff test tomorrow. If it's as I fear, am hoping I will be able to facilities available where I live and get some help to change the HG/sort rings myself - at least then I will learn something more (have learned quite a bit already from scratch, brakes, front suspension, alternator and radiator change etc).

[DamirGTI 327]

Yes it'll be because of compression , because of blown head gasket , cracked liner/head (a but unlikely from my experience as they still work and produce compression with the cracked liner/head .. of course if it's not as severe ..) burnt valves/valve seats , worn out piston rings/cylinder walls (but also , it'll still run with the worn out rings providing they're not completely busted .. kinda badly but it'll run ..)

 

Anyways , the compression tester will tell you if it's a piston rings or valves/valve seats , while leak/sniff test will tell you if you've got combustion gasses inside the coolant system , that'll be head gasket of crack somewhere in the liner/head ...

 

When done with the testing , you'll need to remove the head in order to inspect what really went wrong inside ..

 

Report back when you done the compression/sniff test

 

(if it's a piston ring problem , id reconsider fitting an good 'un , used engine ... cos , it'll be a false economy to change piston rings on one cylinder only .. would really do all 4 of them complete with the big end + main bearings , and freshen up the head i.e. new valve guides , steam seals , valve laping etc. .. so , you'll need to decide what to do based on what you'll find went wrong with the engine in the first place ..)

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

So what you're saying is that if it is the rings, I'll basically need to recondition the whole engine - if I take a week off work (got loads of leave to take so shouldn't be a problem) and get help, is this feasible and affordable compared with getting another engine - I think if it's practical to do so, I would prefer to recondition the existing engine, because then I know it will be ok - if I get another engine, who is to say I won't have problems with that at any time in the future (this one was lovely right up to Fri night)?

 

If I get hold of the guy I'm hoping to, I think I will be able to get all the guidance I need on best motor factors to get parts locally and where to find suitable machinist to check and skim head. If I can use work shop at work and take week off, I can get everything I need and do it step at a time, slow and careful (am wondering if I will be able to carry a cylinder head on the bus though to get to machinists in Darlington).

 

Would I need to take block anywhere for anything, or just take it out change big end and main bearings?

 

If I do end up doing all this, is there anyway to check or recondition water pump and oil pump rather than replacing them?

 

Similarly, I guess you will say I should replace timing belt (although only done 16 months ago)?

 

Many thanks for your wise counsel Damir.

[lapazlane 0]

So what you're saying is that if it is the rings, I'll basically need to recondition the whole engine - if I take a week off work (got loads of leave to take so shouldn't be a problem) and get help, is this feasible and affordable compared with getting another engine - I think if it's practical to do so, I would prefer to recondition the existing engine, because then I know it will be ok - if I get another engine, who is to say I won't have problems with that at any time in the future (this one was lovely right up to Fri night)?

 

If I get hold of the guy I'm hoping to, I think I will be able to get all the guidance I need on best motor factors to get parts locally and where to find suitable machinist to check and skim head. If I can use work shop at work and take week off, I can get everything I need and do it step at a time, slow and careful (am wondering if I will be able to carry a cylinder head on the bus though to get to machinists in Darlington).

 

Would I need to take block anywhere for anything, or just take it out change big end and main bearings?

 

If I do end up doing all this, is there anyway to check or recondition water pump and oil pump rather than replacing them?

 

Similarly, I guess you will say I should replace timing belt (although only done 16 months ago)?

 

Many thanks for your wise counsel Damir.

[DamirGTI 327]

Well , yes ... if it really is a piston ring issue , can replace them just on one cylinder if you want quick fix to get you back on the road but the long term result will be , bad ... when buying piston rings they're in package for all 4 cylinders anyway , so , really dunno if it's possible to buy a set for one cylinder separately .. id say no ..

 

The thing is , once you start dismantling the engine , there will inevitably be parts which will need replacement (gaskets/seals as particularly ..) and it's really bad practice assembling the engine back with old parts - big end bearings , main bearings , piston rings ... all this part can be reused , but no matter how good they look condition/wear wise -> replace ... do it once , do it properly !

 

As for the block , no , you'll only have to take the liners out (this engine has wet cylinder liners .. so they're removable ..) and get them honed before fitting the pistons with new rings inside ..

Water pump cambelt and tensioner are really inexpensive parts so buy new .. suppose you can reuse this 16 months old cambelt but , i would rather buy an new one .. seriously , the price of new water pump/cambelt/tensioner is nothing compared to the damage this parts cause if failed ..

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Have asked an ex REME engineer to have look - his initial impression is probably HG. He will do compression check tomorrow while I am at work the start stripping it and he can get gasket kit, stem seals etc pretty dam cheap so fingers crossed and am awaiting the text with news tomorrow. Boss has agreed to time off from Thurs for me, so I will be able to get stuck in then too hopefully. Will keep you posted.

[DamirGTI 327]

... if it's just a head gasket , it'll be easy and quick job

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Have done compression test - was something like 11-12-10-2 (yes 2) - as I was suspecting.

 

Seemed ok with a wet compression test so hopefully not the rings.

 

Am about to get the head off tonight hopefully so may know better later.

[DamirGTI 327]

Yes , 2 Bar is very low indeed

 

How much was it when wet tested on this 2 Bar cylinder ?

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

GOT THE DIAGNOSIS - took head off tonight - piston crown nearest to cam belt, not so much damaged, worn, unserviceable as completely F****** MELTED

 

I also learned not to use a ring spanner wrench to undo a bolt if you don't have the clearance to remove the spanner once the bolt is out (ie the rear lower bolt on right top engine mount, down by wheel arch.

 

Am hoping to go and look at a cheap 205 STDT on Sat and if it's ok that will give me time to sort things out properly.

 

SO...

 

1 Think the head might be ok (maybe not even need a skim, though not checked yet)

 

2 Think actual block is ok.

 

3 On quick look, saw couple of scratches in one of the liners - I know I got to hone them, but is it feasible/affordable/worth getting new liners?

 

Would it be too much to ask if you could give me a 'shopping list' of every thing I will need to rebuild the engine back to as it should be? Am not looking to increase output as will need to keep costs down as best I can.

 

Have been making lists looking through Haynes but keep finding more things and am sure I will miss something small but crucial. To reduce stress and make things a bit less difficult for myself, I really want to get everything I need and have it there ready, so that once I start, I know I can get on with it and only stop to sleep, eat and go to work.

 

Am aiming for a silver lining where I end up with a strong engine that I know will be ok, that I will look after like my dog and where I will have learned loads and be more confident in what I can do with it (and possibly will try to put in my other gear box as well and see if that one is less crunchy).

 

Thank very much, Jon.

[DamirGTI 327]

ouch !

 

-> pictures please

 

cos , we'll need to find out why did the piston melt in the first place ... then proceed with the repair

 

 

Damir

[lapazlane 0]

Will try and get pics tomorrow.

[lapazlane 0]

Hi Damir. Have got a pic of the cylinders now but can't post it and don't have any facility to host it with a link. Is there a way I can get it to you/ (It's 153K).

 

I have had a chance to look at all the piston crowns now - I can see that there are heavily mineralised (carbon?) deposits on all of them, covering the back of the crowns in the shape of 3/4 moons, leaving less than a 1/4 thin crescent shaped area of smooth metal at the front. The one closest to cam belt (that had minimal compression) is just the worst one, with thick, lumpy deposits, particularly around the outer edges of the crown from about 7 o'clock to 1 o'clock (looking towards rear of bay).

 

Am hopefully picking up a 21 year old 1.9 8v complete on Saturday from Iain-Gti. He removed it 3 weeks ago and has dry stored and said it was running fine and not smoky, though not had head off. He's giving me a new water pump, timing kit and starter too. Do you think I should just put it straight in, or would you advise that I take head off, get it checked and put new gasket on - I've got more time to play with now as I bought a 106 1.5 Diesel at weekend (which in itself will also need checking a full service, though it has just had new MOT) so I can get to work and stuff.

 

Thank, Jon.