Baffled Mi Sump Vs Gti6 Sump And Extended Pickup?

[Jrod 7]

I really thought that the "PeterT" instructions on wet sump control worked even when using sticky slick tyres on a track.

 

As he says, what works for some people doesn't work for others so you might be fine.

 

All I know is the setup I had wasn't enough for my driving style. I've got a simple fix though, I'm not gonna take my mi anywhere but the road!

[petert 552]

A dry sump engine will always have constant oil pressure, say at 70 psi, as there is always a constant head of oil above the oil pump from the reservoir. A wet sump engine, regardless of how well it's baffled, will have fluctuating pressure due to the changes in depth of oil above the pickup. You might see 10 to 70psi in a poorly baffled system, to 40 to 70 psi in the best baffled system. It will never be constant.

[mmt 14]

Pressure above 40 psi will be fine for me and my bearings...I hope. My warninglight is preset at 20 psi. (is that too low? )

 

Please educate me:-) How does the oil flow from the head to the dry sump oli tank? If the surge problem mainly is caused by the oil not getting away from the head then this problem will be present regardless wether using dry sump or wet sump? Or am I talking rubbish?

 

J-rod did you system (which did not work) have an windage tray fitted?

[Batfink 201]

A dry sump system often holds more oil than a traditional system. I know my tank is 5 litres, then I have whatever is in the large pipes to and from the tank.

[Jrod 7]

J-rod did you system (which did not work) have an windage tray fitted?

 

Nope thats the only bit I didn't have.

[mmt 14]

A dry sump system often holds more oil than a traditional system. I know my tank is 5 litres, then I have whatever is in the large pipes to and from the tank.

 

But still :-) The oil needs to get back to the 5L tank in order to be "recycled".

 

 

J-rod: Get a windage tray and get back on the tracks. :-)

[Jrod 7]

Do you think the windage tray makes a big difference?

 

Who else is using one?

Edited March 19, 2010 by Jrod

[welshpug 1,623]

I doubt it would do much difference as it doesn't aid the return of oil from the head in any way or prevent oil from moving away from the oil pump pick up, my gti6 engine has one fitted as standard though.

[Jrod 7]

I doubt it would do much difference as it doesn't aid the return of oil from the head in any way or prevent oil from moving away from the oil pump pick up, my gti6 engine has one fitted as standard though.

 

Thats what I thought to be fair, I was going to do it just because but I can't see it helping alot.

Edited March 19, 2010 by Jrod

[mmt 14]

I can´t see why Peugeot would fit the tray if it did not serve a purpose.

The tray is said to prevent the oil from going up into the engine. It might not keep the oil from moving away from the pump but it must keep it from moving far away from the pump and hence getting back to the pump faster. And it is also suppose to keep the oil away from the (moving) rods/pistons.

 

How is the oil transported away from the head when using dry sump? If it´s the same way as when using the wet sump...the problem must not be poor oil ways in the head then?

[Batfink 201]

But still :-) The oil needs to get back to the 5L tank in order to be "recycled".

 

 

J-rod: Get a windage tray and get back on the tracks. :-)

 

Yes but its literally pulling oil away from the engine and components so its not really a problem, at the same time feeding a good supply. If you want you could have it scavenging off the head so oil does not need to always travel down to the sump

[Jrod 7]

I can´t see why Peugeot would fit the tray if it did not serve a purpose.

The tray is said to prevent the oil from going up into the engine. It might not keep the oil from moving away from the pump but it must keep it from moving far away from the pump and hence getting back to the pump faster. And it is also suppose to keep the oil away from the (moving) rods/pistons.

 

They didn't fit it to an XU9J4 did they?

[welshpug 1,623]

no

[mmt 14]

They got smarter and fitted the tray?

 

It makes sense that the dry sump systen "pulls" the oil away.

 

 

What is the big difference between the mi16 head and the Gti6 head(which never surges as told in the tales of modern engines )Did they improve the oil ways?

 

Can´t see why we can´t make the mi 16 engine perform and stop surging. Similar engines of its time don´t seem to have the same problems!

 

I race against other old cars(+15 years due to class regulations) such as BMW 325, Renault clios, Alfa romeo 75´s, Ford Sierras, Opel Calibra, Porsche 944 and none of them seem to have any surge problems. All running mild tuned std. engines.

[rallysteve 22]

They got smarter and fitted the tray?

 

It makes sense that the dry sump systen "pulls" the oil away.

 

 

What is the big difference between the mi16 head and the Gti6 head(which never surges as told in the tales of modern engines )Did they improve the oil ways?

 

Can´t see why we can´t make the mi 16 engine perform and stop surging. Similar engines of its time don´t seem to have the same problems!

 

I race against other old cars(+15 years due to class regulations) such as BMW 325, Renault clios, Alfa romeo 75´s, Ford Sierras, Opel Calibra, Porsche 944 and none of them seem to have any surge problems. All running mild tuned std. engines.

 

I have had a quick look at the head from my XU9J4 just now and it seems to have a lot of spaces where oil could pool and not get back to the sump easily. When I take the cams and valves out to get the head skimmed I will investigate further. Might be worth getting hold of a scrap head and having a look around and play with the die grinder to see if anything can be taken off to give a clear path back to the drainways through the block. The drainways in the block itself must be sufficient, as already said its almost identical design to the 8vs. The pump and sump are sufficient for the gti6 and S16 so it can be that which means its only the head. The oil must be pushed away from the drain holes under cornering causing the oil to collect in the head and starve the pump of oil.

 

I can see how the dry sump system will vastly improve the problem, but sadly the £700+ is way out of my price range. I am very concerned about the surge problem with my mi16 trackday car im currently rebuilding

 

Steve

[Anthony 1,000]

Has anyone else tried using 8v rods like CRF450 did for Nick and, atleast in his case, dramatically improved matters?

 

It's not just the head that differs on an Mi16 compared to an 8v, but the rod design/fitment as well. GTi-6 went back to 8v style rods too.

[rallysteve 22]

Has anyone else tried using 8v rods like CRF450 did for Nick and, atleast in his case, dramatically improved matters?

 

It's not just the head that differs on an Mi16 compared to an 8v, but the rod design/fitment as well. GTi-6 went back to 8v style rods too.

 

Are the 8v or the gti6 rods directly interchangable?

 

Steve

[Anthony 1,000]

Are the 8v or the gti6 rods directly interchangable?

1.9 8v rods are same length, but the Mi pistons need machining out slightly to accept them as the small end is wider on the 8v rod.

 

If you do a search on CRF450 and Nick's posts you'll find more details.

[Batfink 201]

I just purchased a gti-6 head instead Cheaper than a bottom end rebuild

[ravydavy 0]

I wouldn't imagine it would matter whatever rod/crank/pistons/baffle you use. At the end of the day the mi16 head holds oil massively. Especially round corners. If there is no oil in the sump baffle or no baffle its going bang. Everyone has tried everything with this engine to cure oil surge. At the end of the day without (major) money it'll never be cured. Peugeot i'm sure never intended this engine to go into the 205 with slicks/semi slicks and kart like suspension. Its just a fact of life.

[Baz 421]

Peugeot i'm sure never intended this engine to go into the 205 with slicks/semi slicks and kart like suspension. Its just a fact of life.

 

So what difference does that make considering they put them in 405 Touring cars and 309 Rally cars, and essentially the same engines were in the 306/406's etc in later years too?

 

The difference was, the majority, especially the touring cars were dry sumped.

[ravydavy 0]

So what difference does that make considering they put them in 405 Touring cars and 309 Rally cars, and essentially the same engines were in the 306/406's etc in later years too?

 

The difference was, the majority, especially the touring cars were dry sumped.

As i said in my post. without (major) money the engine will suffer from oil surge. most people on this forum are after an affordable arse kicking/embarrassing car which the 205 is. But it has issues. btcc/rally companies have an endless pot to dig into to resolve the issue. plus the fact the engine will be rebuilt after every race. People waste small/medium amounts of money and get nowhere. The engine just can't cope with what is required.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The BTCC engine's did self destruct, The Sodemo's ones hardy ever did thou

[petert 552]

Do you think the windage tray makes a big difference?

 

Who else is using one?

 

Yes, it stops the crankshaft whipping up the oil. At higher RPM's the oil attaches itself like a big mass to the crank. The sump definitely needs to be separated from the crankshaft area in a wet sump system. There is video on the net somewhere of an engine fitted with a perspex sump.

 

 

Who else is using one? All XU10's since 11/93.

[Jrod 7]

I meant on the XU9J4 engine sorry. Either way I'm not sure it would of cured my issue.

 

On the first test I used first gear 5-6k, noticed surge so slowed down. Second run I decided to take it a bit easier and used 2nd gear and was only at about 3-4k and it still surged.

I think this shows just how slowly I was going when it surged aswell, the problem is it was full lock and doing 180's around cones etc so very tight corners.