Gti6\mi16 Hybrid

[Guest Siddley]

Ok first post, be kind

 

For my 205 build I have a couple of engines I can use. An Mi16 which needs a little work and a GTi6 which is good to go.

 

I suppose what I should do is just throw the Gti-6 lump in, but I keep looking at the ally block on the Mi16 and thinking of all the weight I could save by using that instead.

 

From using the search function I know that :-

 

The GTi6 head will fit the Mi16 block and help with the oil surge problem

 

The GTi6 sump will fit the Mi16 block and also help with the oil surge problem

 

The GTi6 head has milder cams than the Mi16, but allows higher lifts when fitted to the Mi16 block

 

But seeing as I have two complete engines available what other things could\should I swap between them to get the best combination possible ?

 

The intended use is for thrashing the hell out of at trackdays and I'll likely use carbs and aftermarket ignition. I know injection is the way forward, but I'm old school and carbs are what I understand ( although that may change... )

Edited January 28, 2010 by Siddley

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Welcome mate

 

Here's a thread of Cameron's, he's done a similar thing to what you want to do.

 

All the points you've made are correct by the way. Have a search it should come up with a fair few results, if you get stuck with the search bar, try the google one in my sig

Edited January 28, 2010 by Paul_13

[Cameron 16]

The hybrid route is all good as long as you can afford decent aftermarket management, the engine won't run on either the Mi16 or GTi6 management. It's a good investment though, as you're then ready to go for throttle bodies and cams further down the line.

 

It seems to be a really strong combination, mine is making over 180bhp with just management, cams and a 2.5" exhaust system on the standard GTi6 inlet manifold, which is a pretty good gain!

 

So, if you can afford management then the hybrid is your best option as it gives you the best of both worlds. If you can't then it's down to weather you want the lightest engine, or the most modern engine. Both are pretty much equal in terms of performance.

[Guest Siddley]

Thanks guys.

 

Hell of a build thread Cameron. I just read it all. You have some pretty impressive skills.

 

What was your reason for junking the waterpump ?, I must have missed that bit.

 

I'm thinking about Megajolt and carbs, either motorcycle or Weber 45's. I know the 'Mega' stuff doesn't seem to be very well liked, but it's only got to control the ignition in this case.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

I've just recently changed management and inlet manifold, I was previously using standard inlet and Motronic M1.3 with a pair of 262 cams.

 

Now we have

Mi16 alloy block engine

262 cams

GTI-6 inlet manifold using the Mi16 ICV

Emerald Management.

 

I went this route originally to simplify the system, binning the AFM, Ignition amp set up, and be able to map it making the use of the cams. Now I'm drawn to TB's.

After a couple of mapping sessions, the last one by Dave Walker we got 185bhp and around 145lbft of torque.

 

Have a chat with Miles he built this part of it (actually he built the engine too a few years ago). He can tell you what it's like to drive!

 

link to thread

 

Edited January 29, 2010 by Simes

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Don't buy into the weight thing with iron blocks.....

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=109949

 

[petert 556]

Being such small duration, GTi6 cams are a limiting factor if considering reground cams. You can fit a far bigger grind onto Mi16/S16 cams. So if you want cheap serious hp the GTi6 is not the answer. The S16 head is every bit as good if you want a cam position sensor.

Edited January 29, 2010 by petert

[Cameron 16]

I've just recently changed management and inlet manifold, I was previously using standard inlet and Motronic M1.3 with a pair of 262 cams.

 

Now we have

Mi16 alloy block engine

262 cams

GTI-6 inlet manifold using the Mi16 ICV

Emerald Management.

 

After a couple of mapping sessions, the last one by Dave Walker we got 185bhp and around 145lbft of torque.

 

Well, you managed to get 2bhp more, I managed 5lbft more torque. Swings and roundabouts isn't it.

I'm not making racing driver excuses here, but I'm really not happy with the job Dave Walker did on my mapping and cam setup. I'll definitely be looking for a different mapper when I have my throttle bodies fitted.

 

Don't buy into the weight thing with iron blocks.....

 

Sorry but I don't see anything on there that shows that the weight hasn't affected the handling. It isn't an urban myth that iron blocks weigh more, nor it is a myth that weight is the killer of performance.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Well, I can only offer my 'word'... which, in summary, is that my car certainly didn't feel any worse and, in fact, felt slightly more planted on the front end following the swap. But, like I say in the thread, I'm hardly running standard road suspension so that should be taken into account. I'm not saying iron blocks don't weight more - that's plain daft of course. I've said in a few threads before that if I was not planning to do anything massively wild to the engine in terms of tuning, I'd pick the alloy 1.9 over the iron 2.0 any day of the week... but don't kick the iron block out of the running too easily, that's all

[Batfink 201]

I'd expect the heavier engine over the driven wheels to help for your use brumster

[Guest Siddley]

Saving weight is very important to me, it just seems to make perfect sense.

 

Do the Mi16 cams fit the GTi6 head ? I suppose that would be too much to hope for...

[Anthony 1,000]

Do the Mi16 cams fit the GTi6 head ? I suppose that would be too much to hope for...

Nope, afraid not.

 

1.9 Mi16 and 2.0 Mi16/S16 share the same cam fitment, but later 16v engines like GTi-6 have a different cam fitment.

[Cameron 16]

Well, I can only offer my 'word'... which, in summary, is that my car certainly didn't feel any worse and, in fact, felt slightly more planted on the front end following the swap. But, like I say in the thread, I'm hardly running standard road suspension so that should be taken into account. I'm not saying iron blocks don't weight more - that's plain daft of course. I've said in a few threads before that if I was not planning to do anything massively wild to the engine in terms of tuning, I'd pick the alloy 1.9 over the iron 2.0 any day of the week... but don't kick the iron block out of the running too easily, that's all

 

I'm not wishing to start an iron vs alloy block argument here, each has it's advantages and the GTi6 block has a whole load of advantages over the Mi16 as it's a fair bit more modern. I just think if you're serious about weight saving, which a lot of people on here are with removing interiors and drilling holes everywhere, to put an extra 15-20kg up front seems a bit ridiculous.

[Guest Siddley]

Well I'm serious about weight saving....so for me personally it makes a lot of sense. I'm building a car which is only intended for track use ( and just about street legal enough to drive there and back ) - anything which isn't absolutely neccessary has already been taken off and what's left will be lightened as far as possible.

[Galifrey 1]

Don't buy into the weight thing with iron blocks.....

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=109949

 

 

True, most of the weight is in the Ships Anchor they call a top engine mount

[boombang 2]

If it's for fun rather than competitive, I'd slap a Gti-6 lump in there and save yourself hours of searching & questions.

 

The ally blocked lumps can be very fragile, and I I'd personally rather spend more time out there doing track days than fixing it.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

This is the thing, of course. You're right that if weight saving is the be-all-and-end-all for you, if it's your primary focus and you're a no-compromise kinda guy, then stay with the mi16. Like I said, if you're always going to be happy with roughly 190-200 horses for semi-sensible money, it'll do you proud (provided you build it 'right', but that goes with anything). All I'm saying is, if a 2.0 S16 came your way for good money (let alone a gti6) that you had more confidence in than an 1.9 mi, then I personally wouldn't dismiss it just because it was 16 kilos or so heavier... just stick a carbon bonnet on and you're half way back to where you started, if not more. Move the battery to the back, presto, a few more kilos moved, and so on....

 

But trust me, I'm no poo-poo'er of the alloy mi16, you'll love it either way. Go with what you feel is best, which by the sounds of it is the alloy block...

[James_m 0]

I've just recently changed management and inlet manifold, I was previously using standard inlet and Motronic M1.3 with a pair of 262 cams.

 

Now we have

Mi16 alloy block engine

262 cams

GTI-6 inlet manifold using the Mi16 ICV

Emerald Management.

 

I went this route originally to simplify the system, binning the AFM, Ignition amp set up, and be able to map it making the use of the cams. Now I'm drawn to TB's.

After a couple of mapping sessions, the last one by Dave Walker we got 185bhp and around 145lbft of torque.

 

Have a chat with Miles he built this part of it (actually he built the engine too a few years ago). He can tell you what it's like to drive!

 

link to thread

 

Hows the drivability compared to standard Simes? Does it behave like OEM in terms of idle, starting, throttle response etc?

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Hows the drivability compared to standard Simes? Does it behave like OEM in terms of idle, starting, throttle response etc?

 

I've only really driven it about 100miles since the mapping and most of that was on the motorway. What we have to remember is that Bosch spent millions developing their product whereas I'm using an ECU developed in Norfolk and about 10 hours on two rolling roads!!

Cold start is sorted now and it does idle which was a concern after the first mapping session. It is still very jerky around 2krpm on trailing and then applying light throttle, it's certainly not as easy to drive in traffic, almost like an 8v on Jetronic.

According to both mappers this is down to the camshafts. I don't run verniers and I don't want to adjust the cam timing as I'll lose the power I'm making therefore no point in having cams.

The Motronic had better drivability but also gave me 4000ppm HC on idle, I've know got that down to 1200ppm. I think I just really need to get used to it and drive it a bit more . I might also have ago at adjust a few things on the Emerald.

 

'Apparently' though the best way to sort all of this out is to chuck another £1000 at it and get some Jenvey's....more mapping etc..

 

Overall though the transformation is unbelievable. The car feels so much more alive with improved throttle response, regardless of what the figures are, it really motors along and I am very happy.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Simes

[petert 556]

My favourite is the 2L Mi16/S16. It has all the advantages of the GTi6 block (same oil control and squirters), in addition to full floating pistons. The extra weight is easily offset by the power potential of the extra 93cc. It's simply the easiest and cheapest to get reliable hp out of. With a decked block, my reground cams and after market ECU it makes a reliable 190-200hp.

[petert 556]

According to both mappers this is down to the camshafts. I don't run verniers and I don't want to adjust the cam timing as I'll lose the power I'm making therefore no point in having cams.

 

I don't agree with that. I've built quite a few 1905cc engines with aftermarket ECU and my Stage I inlet and , which is bigger than your 262 and I don't have trouble setting the trailing throttle. It takes time (and thus money) and they just haven't been bothered to work on that part of the maps (Or else the Emerald is a cheap and nasty ECU).

 

Your cams ideally need to be setup on a 109-110 deg. centreline. If you're running a #2 pulley (114 deg) all you're doing is pushing the power power band out of the range of the engine, thus missing out on valuable mid range torque. There's enough duration in your cams that advancing them won't kill the top end. I can provide an offset key that will advance the cam 4 degrees if desired.

Edited January 29, 2010 by petert

[Cameron 16]

I'd hazard a guess that they hadn't bothered. That's why I was unhappy about the quality of map I got from emerald. I think the problem is that dave has been in the game so long he's seen it all and lost his passion. He only seems to put the effort in when something really really special comes along. That's why I'll be swapping mappers next time. My car may not look special but it is to me, and for the £300-odd per session I expect him to put a bit of bloody effort in!

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

My favourite is the 2L Mi16/S16. It has all the advantages of the GTi6 block (same oil control and squirters), in addition to full floating pistons. The extra weight is easily offset by the power potential of the extra 93cc. It's simply the easiest and cheapest to get reliable hp out of. With a decked block, my reground cams and after market ECU it makes a reliable 190-200hp.

 

Amen to that, Peter, wholeheartedly agree. When I was trying to source a donor lump for Longman, I was having trouble finding a gti6 lump for sensible money and/or that didn't look like it had been ragged to within an inch of it's life. They said not to worry about it, and just source an S16 if I could fine one - if I recall, the basic premise was that the gti6 had the better rods (but I was talked into aftermarked ones anyway) and that the head would need a little more work from them than a gti6 donor, but they were happy they could make within 10 horsepower on the numbers over a gti6 engine (ie. ~250 horses on the s16; 260 horses on the gti6 for same amount spent).

 

I know these figures aren't really in keeping with the conversation thread, but my point is irrespective of gti6 or s16, if I wanted those numbers out of an alloy lump I was looking at some serious expenditure...

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

I don't agree with that. I've built quite a few 1905cc engines with aftermarket ECU and my Stage I inlet and , which is bigger than your 262 and I don't have trouble setting the trailing throttle. It takes time (and thus money) and they just haven't been bothered to work on that part of the maps (Or else the Emerald is a cheap and nasty ECU).

 

Your cams ideally need to be setup on a 109-110 deg. centreline. If you're running a #2 pulley (114 deg) all you're doing is pushing the power power band out of the range of the engine, thus missing out on valuable mid range torque. There's enough duration in your cams that advancing them won't kill the top end. I can provide an offset key that will advance the cam 4 degrees if desired.

 

Trailing throttle is just as bad as the Motronic was....my problem is that I perhaps was a little too trusting with the mapping.

 

Thanks for the info on the cam timing.