Gti6 Goes Pop!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Nick9One1 is currently using my R plate, Nile blue 306 GTI6.

 

 

It's run really well up until now, never missing a beat, but the other day it developed a really rattly top end and wouldn't rev past 2,500. I really could've done without this.

 

Anyway: here's a vid: http://s430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ni...t=VIDEO0006.flv

 

Naturally it was all turned off pretty quickly, and Nick and I via e-mail, and with outstanding PM support from Miles, Anthony and Welshpug are in the process of fixing it.

 

A newly refurbed head on exchange should be coming today or tomorrow from Carl (mechanical_repairs) in Leicester who's been very helpful too, and she should be back on the road very soon. It'll have nice new bits and should be groovy again. This is an opportunity for me to say thanks to everyone who's helped out.

 

The purpose of this thread is to hopefully hear other ideas and explanations as to what could've happened. The picture below doesn't show, but Nick says a valve has 'snapped' , and is wedged in the port.

 

 

Nick checked the cams and they were all nicely lubed up and his initial inspection under the timing belt cover made him believe the jumping of a tooth or two has caused this. Perhaps this was caused by the tensioner, but I was told by the seller that the cam belt had been done recently. What I'm not sure of is how this would ever happen?

 

I don't know much about GTI6 engines, although I have heard about 'chocolate pistons' and timing belt issues although I don't know any detail, so would someone with more experience attempt to clarify exactly how this may have happened please?

Edited July 31, 2009 by DrSarty

[Baz 421]

That'll be fooked then.

 

But, you may have got away without further damage to the pistons etc with a little luck.

 

Good luck with the new head, hopefully it will have all the right thread bolts in it etc...

[richsmells 2]

I posted this link earlier, but 16v205's pics at the top of the thread show a "snapped" valve.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=90889

Edited July 31, 2009 by richsmells

[Tesstuff 222]

Hmmm, rattly top end and in need of a cambelt change, now that does ring a bell

[welshpug 1,622]

looks like it may have been a "tapper", as that's the only reason for the valve head to drop off.

 

fingers crossed that the piston and bore are ok, doubtful though

[kyepan 291]

ouch.... open her up and lets see what happened...

[welshpug 1,622]

if I'm right about who the previous owner was I think it was a tapper.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for your concerns and comments.

 

Nick should have the head off very soon if he hasn't already. He did say that the broken valve was 'wedged' in the port, so I'm seriously hoping there's been no piston clash. Only time and a camera will tell.

 

Nick also never mentioned the car was a 'tapper' any time since collecting and running it.

 

When people say this, do you just mean it had a noisy top end anyway? It still doesn't explain why this would happen, although I saw from Rich's (16v205's) thread that a valve can break apart.

 

Perhaps the timing slipped and caused this? I just don't know. I suppose it'll come clearer when the head's off.

 

*Gulps*

[welshpug 1,622]

the "tapper" is the common term for a badly repaired engine that has previously snapped a belt, or from when someone has been careless when replacing a belt and had valve to valve clash when trying o time the cams up without timing tools.

 

these tappers can often go on for thousands of miles without issues but eventually something does let go, normally a valve head parts company with the stem, locking the engine momentarily and causing the belt to slip and taking more valves out, or sometimes just taking the crown of the piston away if they go at higher revs, often sending the rod out of the block.

 

usually the cause of the noise is a slightly bent valve, worst case is a damaged guide as well.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Lots of people only replace the cambelt on those engines when they should do the tensioner as well and every 40k max, not 70k or whatever PSA say. The bottom pulleys have been known to rotate on themselves when the rubber brakes up buggering the timing as well.

[James_R 3]

Seems the narrow stem on the GTi6 valves and tiny pockets are the main route of the issues

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Seems the narrow stem on the GTi6 valves and tiny pockets are the main route of the issues

 

Stem I understand; pocket I don't. (?)

 

That's 3 of you now who've said about the main crank pulley slipping. Anthony recommended fitting an 8v pulley and Nick seems to be ahead of the game on that one because I forwarded Anthony and Meirion's advice as they gave it to me. Nick's also going to get expert advice or assistance in fitting the new belt and tensioner and timing it up right.

 

However...

 

I'm brickin' it about what the pistons are going to look like. This could get nasty and very costly.

 

But: I've been known to be a jammy bugger. Let's hope my jam hasn't run out.

[welshpug 1,622]

basically there's sod all clearance in the gti6 pistons for the valves unlike an Mi16, a tiny slip means contact, plus they have very large valve heads and the inlet and exhaust valves can actually touch each other if the cams aren't kept locked in place.

 

the 6mm stems don't help matters.

 

you can use the 8v pulley to time them up, but not to run the engine with I think.

 

The main issue when the auxillary belt pulley slips around its centre is only caused when people dismantle the pulleys and belt etc before pinning the cams and bottom end up, just bad practice.

 

pin the cams and bottom end up first and you'll soon know if the pulley is faulty.

 

its really not difficult though, just another pug engine! but with disastrous consequences when you get a small detail wrong!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for that Mei.

 

I feel a bit stupid now because I know about pockets for valves in pistons, but was thinking for some reason of a pocket in the valve or the head that I didn't know about. Doh!! I do have my moments.

 

I've spoken to Carl at Mechanical Repairs in Leicester now twice and he's built up my new head already. He's really doing an excellent, rapid job, and this head will be complete, ready to bolt on with new studs and everything, with the cams pinned and timed already as well.

 

Nick will take the poorly head to Carl complete and do a one-for-one swap. This has saved so much time as no head dismantling or part swapping is required.

 

This of course is pending inspection of the block and pistons but I'm trying to feel and be lucky. *crosses fingers and testes*

 

Carl is also supplying a new, custom, lightweight solid bottom pulley for Nick to fit, and will provide a complete guide to Nick so it all goes back togther swimmingly. He's been and is being most helpful.

 

If we are lucky, this should give the car a new lease of life and long future for Nick, me and when I come to sell it.

 

Sh1t does happen indeed though.

[James_R 3]

I'd say if the valve is "wedged" in the port the piston will need swapping out, after my s16 failed at 5000rpm ish it punched a clean whole through the crown from the valve snaping going upside down then ending up sideways in the throat, oh and scored the bore too.

 

But fingers crossed for you.

 

I dont' think the bottom pulley has anything to do with it, it's more the lack of clearance like even 1 tooth out is very dangerous ground then the Mi/s16's seem to get away with 2 out.

 

There's also been several failures (apparently spontainious) on the uprated spring catcams jobs of valve heads falling off which I put down to the narrow stem, and personally prefer the Mi/s16 varient heads.

Edited July 31, 2009 by James_R

[taylorspug 7]

I'd say if the valve is "wedged" in the port the piston will need swapping out, after my s16 failed at 5000rpm ish it punched a clean whole through the crown from the valve snaping going upside down then ending up sideways in the throat, oh and scored the bore too.

 

But fingers crossed for you.

 

Im going to have to agree with James im afraid Rich. The only way that valve got wedged in the port was if the piston rammed it up there.

 

Fingers crossed it hasnt knocked the block out aswell though...

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

If you need any spare pistons, i'm going to pick a block Saturday from a bloke who's stripping down a 6 engine.

 

Drop me a PM if your interested

[gti-si 0]

Hope you've got away with it Sarty, real shame. As said, I can't see the valve getting wedged up there without being put there by the piston, just hope it doesn't look like 16v205s.

 

Good luck with it anyway. Atleast it's not from your own doing. My new engine is tapping like buggery, I suspect it's my fault . They say things are sent to try us..

Edited July 31, 2009 by gti-si

[GLPoomobile 958]

If only all car rentals could be so amicable

 

That really is rotten luck Rich. As for you being jammy, if you are half as lucky as Guy is (the stories he was telling me the day I picked your car up ) then you'll probably be just fine.

 

So what do you know about the engine's history then? I know where you bought the car from, and I've got my own opinons about that person, but I'll keep my opinions to myself for once

[2052006 10]

If an engine is a so-called "tapper", is this clearly audible? And is it quite different to the ticking noise the injectors make?

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Going to agree with james and dan here... better get the wallet out to stick a new '6 in there then!

[taylorspug 7]

If an engine is a so-called "tapper", is this clearly audible? And is it quite different to the ticking noise the injectors make?

 

Yes very different, its a loud,harsh tapping, sounds like something is trying to escape from the rocker cover. It makes the engine sound terrible, and gets worse when you rev it, so much so the ones ive seen ive barely wanted to start them let alone drive them for fear of breakage!

[2052006 10]

Ah, good. Thanks for the clarification

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Here's the original for sale thread. Click

 

I didn't pay this much for it, and you'll see the statements regarding FSH and work done, i.e. new cambelt 2,500 miles ago. This is one key reason I bought it.

 

He said his father works/worked at a Peugeot garage too which was reassuring, although it had no MoT at all (rather than the 6 months' as stated), and the MoT it did get we can't really see how it got it, due to no cat and the front brakes being nearly worn through.

 

These are by no means intentional inflammatory remarks; they are the truth. I am not wishing to get into a slagging match but it does seem that either the cam belt wasn't done as stated, or at the very least it wasn't done correctly. Hence me now paying the price, literally.

 

Some of you in forum world may not like me very much, but I'm sure you wouldn't wish this on anyone. I see it that no-one's hurt, and it's the risk you take these days buying cars anyway, especially if you buy them from 3,500miles away based on good faith.

 

I will get out of this with Nick's and everyone else's kind and generous support.

 

 

Come on then Nick...post up them piston and block pics:

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Here's the original for sale thread. Click

 

I didn't pay this much for it, and you'll see the statements regarding FSH and work done, i.e. new cambelt 2,500 miles ago. This is one key reason I bought it.

 

He said his father works/worked at a Peugeot garage too which was reassuring, although it had no MoT at all (rather than the 6 months' as stated), and the MoT it did get we can't really see how it got it, due to no cat and the front brakes being nearly worn through.

 

These are by no means intentional inflammatory remarks; they are the truth. I am not wishing to get into a slagging match but it does seem that either the cam belt wasn't done as stated, or at the very least it wasn't done correctly. Hence me now paying the price, literally.

 

Some of you in forum world may not like me very much, but I'm sure you wouldn't wish this on anyone. I see it that no-one's hurt, and it's the risk you take these days buying cars anyway, especially if you buy them from 3,500miles away based on good faith.

 

I will get out of this with Nick's and everyone else's kind and generous support.

 

 

Come on then Nick...post up them piston and block pics:

 

 

Wasnt it officially declared that bloke is a lying bastard over on gti6 forum? I thought he was a lash up king and had been trying to punt a dodgy supercharger kit or something?

 

Also, didnt this car once have a supercharger kit fitted? Alarm bells are ringing all round to be honest. Im also not pointing the finger at anyone BUT, valves dont "just" conatct pistons and cambelts dont "just" skip teeth. IT dosent happen. I hate to stir things a bit here but I would say that engine has been over revved. Maybe gone for 5th flat out and grabbed 3rd????

 

This whole thing to me just highlights the fact you are playing with fire renting out these sorts of cars Rich.

 

Maxi