Tandem Mi Engine Build

[welshpug 1,627]

Component listings-

 

page 1

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page 3

 

3 row loom-

 

Edited August 9, 2009 by welshpug

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I don't think these'll be readable Mei. Too low resolution. That's what I found. Sorry.

[Anthony 1,000]

You did spot the "all sizes" magnifying glass, didn't you? The large one is easily readable

 

Click the thumbnail above for a larger version too....

[welshpug 1,627]

There is a 1024x685 version for each one that you can download and zoom into, they're about 2.8-3.5mb each, have emailed the 4mb original though.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Ahah!

 

I've never used Flickr before so didn't know about that feature. Sorry y'awl.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Right. Now here's even more proof that I have too much time on my hands.

 

Attached is the 405 Mi16 3-row Haynes manual ECU loom diagram....all colour coded up. This makes it not only far easier to read, as you don't have to look up what the things are anymore as I've labelled them, but the similar/related circuits are now the same colour.

 

For example:

The ECU makes stuff happen usually by ground (gnd) switching things, even the injectors. These are all orange.

 

Switched live via ignition is yellow and permanent battery fed direct 12v power is red.

 

Sensor gnds are different from chassis grounds (and usually shared), and are in purple. What I've realised/learnt from this exercise is that the IAT (inlet air temp) sensor is housed inside the AFM (logical) and is already sharing the sensor ground of the AFM. This is why in my earlier pin listing I couldn't see a dedicated IAT sensor gnd. Now I've found it.

 

Chassis gnds are dashed green.

 

The signal wires, i.e something other than an earth 'sent out' from the ECU OR coming back into the ECU from a sensor aren't coloured. These are things like the 5v+ ref for the AFM (out) and the coolant temp sensor signal (in).

 

This has worked out well because it shows that of the 55 total pins only 23 are really required, as I said earlier. The good news is that we know this set-up works, as Peugeot designed it.

 

The injector relay and fuel pump (FP - also known as the tachy relay in this configuration) are quite complexly linked; but the bottom line is we know it works, so you only have to copy this and you can't go wrong.

 

Bits like the lambda/O2 sensor and the fuel vapour purge system are 'blue boxed' out and are simply not required, as I (most of us) won't be using an ECU from a cat'd model. This means the unused pins are 'pink boxed' out on the ECU plug.

 

I added some arrows to the light blue relay triggered 12v power circuits for the injectors and FP, as following these shows how it all works. The relays are mutually dependant, so you can perhaps see why on an Mi16, if one of these relays failed, the system wouldn't work. Luckily a relay's only about £2.87 from VWP.

 

So my meticulously designed relay box is fine for aftermarket ECU installations, and I will post it on here. But for now, I'm going to slightly re-design it to fit in perfectly with the attached, as that's the standard loom and I hope now due to this diagram is as clear as day. Anyone building a loom to this shouldn't go far wrong.

 

The next challenge is matching up pin numbers on the loom fly-off connectors, such as the AFM and coil, which I'm hoping someone with a 3-row loom could look at for me/us by checking the wire numbers going to each pin. That would really, really help.

 

Mi16_3Row_ECU_Loom_Diagram_Colour_Reduced.pdf

Edited August 9, 2009 by DrSarty

[petert 554]

This one is better:

[welshpug 1,627]

yeah, missing the important component pin listings that the 405 Haynes manual missed!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Attached below and shown here is the relay box I designed to suit installation of the 3-row Mi16 ECU. This would be mounted in the engine bay and be waterproofed. The containing box would have an o-ring lid seal and the connections in and out would be sturdy.

 

 

I may still make my own loom for these projects, but I have included in brackets at the bottom of the above & attached diagram the wire numbers if you were to mate this to an OE loom. Were you to use an OE loom, you would need the earlier posted (and re-coloured) Haynes manual diagram to follow the wire numbers correctly, as some are '20', and then become '20A/B/C' etc, or change completely to '138'.

 

Peter's (Motronic) diagram is outstanding, and much like the Megasquirt one; it's so clear, even having the pin numbers for the connections which was the final piece of the puzzle I needed. Thanks Pete; now where's that e-mail you promised me?

 

I will definitately be making two of these relay boxes, and if I become proficient at it, I may make them and sell them on here. If they come with a complete Sarty loom, they will just be plug and play .

 

So using VWP (Vehicle Wiring Products') website and parts lists, to make this relay box you need the following items:

 

* 69715 'Universal Junc Box' 150x110x70mm 1off = £6.89

* FB6 '6.3mm female spade connectors' 1-3mm wire 10off = £1

* FHA40 '4-way fuse holder' (i.e. 1 spare) 1off = £1.47

* R20B 'Relay' 1off = £1.87

* R30AF 'Fused relay' 2off = £15.50

* RSI 'Relay socket' 3off = £2.73 (Not essential)

* FB3 'Blade fuse 3A' 1off = 15p

* FB5 'Blade fuse 5A' 2off = 30p

* FB10 'Blade fuse 10A' 1off = 15p

* MNL12 'Mate N Lock connector 12pin' 1off = £3.96 (These MNL connectors can be box wall mounted or on fly leads/pig tails)

* MNL6 'Mate N Lock connector 6pin' 1off = £2.18

* 538 'Single pole terminal block' 1off = £3.86 (This is to enable the many light blue, relay-triggered switched live wires to T-off)

 

Above total cost ~£40 (!)

 

Note: The MNL connectors will accept wires of up to 2.5mm^2 which if using thin wall cable is enough for 25A of continous current, which is more than enough for the heaviest drain which will be the (optional) manual cooling fan cut-in circuit. The Pacet fans really only draw a maximum of 15A, so I can't see an OE fan needing much more than that either.

 

Also note that wiring is not included but would need to have a maximum current capability of 10A to cope with the fuel pump, or possibly 15A to be safe. This means thin wall cable of 1mm^2 cross section, which is pretty tiny. Naturally the fan power wire would need to be 2.5mm^2 throughout and is shown by a thicker red wire on the diagram.

 

The excellent, fully-labelled Megasquirt loom I would use to make a new loom is more than man enough for all of the applications less the fan wire.

 

These are the component prices only i.e. not with P&P. Also: I am not sure yet whether the listed plastic box item will be large enough for the 5 main components but I will see when I try, and may have to find a larger (perhaps black) alternative.

 

I'm going to make a design similar to this to suit after market ECUs as well, as there are some funny returns in this to suit the Mi16 3-row ECU wiring diagram shown above, which are not required, certainly on an Emerald, and should be usable on most aftermarket ECUs.

 

When I make these relay boxes I'll post a 'how to' with pics.

 

This definitely helps me, and I hope it's useful to others too.

Relay_Box_Design_for_3Row_Mi16_ECU_Use.pdf

Edited August 11, 2009 by DrSarty

[leon 1.9 0]

I'd look at a basic IP (Ingress Protection) rated box like one of these:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/search.aspx?MenuNo...&FromMenu=y

 

Other thing to consider is how the wires enter the box. Maybe get a basic gland (like this: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=24611) and put the wires together through a rubber bung or something to seal it fairly well and still look tidy?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for the tip Leon. Maplin is a place for geeks...

 

...I fit right in.

 

The better choice of boxes is good, and ref the connections/entry/exit of the wires, the MNLs are actually very good and have been designed to be bulkhead (i.e. wall of box) mounted to. They click and lock and whilst they are not weathered connectors you'd be hard pressed to get enough water in them to cause a problem.

 

I will look at some alternative connectors, or the other option is grommet and sleeve (gland ) the wires going in/out and have a 6" pigtail with an MNL or similar WP connector on the end.

 

Thanks.

 

P.S. I've now just updated the last downloadable PDF to include a label for the fuse block, which may not have been clear.

Edited August 11, 2009 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,627]

Try http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/ they do wiring looms for Dakar spec Bowler wildcats amongst other off road beasties, so I'd imagine a 205 would be quite easy for them to cater for

[leon 1.9 0]

Thanks for the tip Leon. Maplin is a place for geeks...

 

...I fit right in.

 

Maplins is the jack of most trades and ace of none, but as it's not me ordering stuff via trade accounts it does the job.

 

Its a beautiful day here btw, I'm looking out at a sheep-filled field and a small bay with little boats in it, beneath a bright blue almost cloudless sky

 

*ps/ edit: the love smiley was NOT for the sheep, I'm not actually Welsh *

Edited August 11, 2009 by leon 1.9

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

^^ That was a bit random Leon.

 

I on the other hand am on the 5th floor of an office complex in the city of Kabul, watching really, REALLY bad driving. We should consider ourselves lucky.

 

Here are some choices for the dash switch to cut in the fan if you ever wanted/needed to, in case you wanted to buy a complete kit: rocker switches

 

Personally I favour E721-4, E731-4 or E471/3/4. I don't like the look of the E471RS line ..........

 

Oh E731. x

 

Edited August 11, 2009 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I promised I'd knock up a diagram for a relay box to suit an aftermarket ECU as well, rather than the 3-row Mi loom & ECU used for these projects.

 

This design is based on what's been running for nearly a year now in my 2.2 Mi without a single issue, which in turn was based on the Megasquirt recommended relay box design.

 

Now I have more experience of these things, I can see the logic and am confident they will work for any after market ECU. That is NOT a guarantee mind, just a statement of confidence.

 

 

(It's also downloadable as a PDF below)

 

The dash-switched cooling fan cut-in circuit is optional, but this design will protect the ECU via a dioded relay (VWP part# 72714), protects the relay box complete via the 20A fuse and also the ECU, fuel pump and injectors via their own dedicated 2-3A, 10A and twin 5A fuses.

 

There is one additional circuit/protection on my 2.2 relay box which is not shown here, and that's one of those inertia switches that at least 306s have, and it sits on the orange ECU fuel pump trigger line.

 

The inertia swtich is bolted to an inner wing or bulkhead, where in the event of a shunt/accident, the 'jolt' shakes the gubbins inside sufficently so a spring breaks the circuit and cuts the fuel pump relay, meaning - just like a tachimetric relay - the pump doesn't keep pumping when your world's upside down.

 

If it ever trips, there's just a big rubber button in the top you press in to reset it.

 

Personally I think this is quite a bit simpler than the one needed for the Mi 3-row ECU/loom, as that has the relays linked to each other 'turning each other on' ( )and this doesn't.

Relay_Box_Design_for_Aftermarket_ECU_Use.pdf

Edited August 15, 2009 by DrSarty

[large 33]

Rich, you could have a look in rswww.com. Not the cheapest but you get what you pay for. As for the box I would be looking for an IP65 rating.

[shalmaneser 26]

or farnell, bit better than RS for electrical stuff in my experience.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hello again.

 

This is still going on in conjunction with Sarty Evo II, and this info is relevant to that too.

 

I've updated the two relay box designs (for 3-row Mi and aftermarket ECU usage), to include the optional inertia (safety) switch and in one diagram the ECU fan control wire. They are both attached.

 

The inertia switch will be pence (or a pocket job ) from a scrappies, off a 306/406 plus...

 

I've also now purchased everything I think you need to make the aftermarket ECU relay box and associated loom, which is shown below. The Mi loom/box list is almost identical, except it uses a standard VWP relay instead of a diode one (which protects the ECU).

 

*VWP shopping list attached: £91.68 delivered (ouch! - )

 

*MS loom & Bosch injector connectors with pigtails x 4: £53 delivered (from the US of A - DIYAutotune)

 

Total for a nearly complete homemade loom, for engine management & instrument sensing/feedback ~ £145.

 

It's incomplete because connectors for inlet air temp sensor, AFM, coolant temp sensor, TPS etc will all need to be grafted in, but again you should have access to these either from an old loom or your friendly scrappies.

 

I suspect there'll be loads spare, but a decent grommet (or gland ) will also need to be bought (from Maplin or similar as VWP don't do glands ) to get the wires safely through the bulkhead.

 

Also note that this is based on guessing wire lengths required with the ECU being boxed by the battery.

 

Again I hope this helps. Proper prior planning prevents piss-poor performance (allegedly).

Relay_Box_Components___Desc__For_Aftermarket_ECU_.doc

Relay_Box_Design_for_3Row_Mi16_ECU_Use.pdf

Relay_Box_Design_for_Aftermarket_ECU_Use.pdf

Edited September 10, 2009 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

And I've just realised I forgot one thing, which is a pair of wires....the reverse switch wires. Doh!

 

No biggy, coz they can be plucked from an old loom or replaced with two brown wires as the polarity (markings) is not important.

 

This means that with the ECU mounted in the engine bay, 13 or 14 wires need to go through a sturdy grommet/gland in the bulkhead, depending on ECU used.

 

These are:

 

1 - Typical

Tacho (rev counter) {1}

Switched live {1}

Fuel pump power {1}

Oil temp, pressure (gauge & light) {3}

Water temp (gauge & light) {2}

Engine crank (solenoid) {1}

Manual fan cut-in (dash switch) {1}

Alternator (charging light) {1}

Reverse light {2}

TOTAL 13

 

2 - With K-light from Mi ECU

K-light {1}

with above TOTAL 14

 

I am now in the process of making THE mother of all loom layout drawings, as simple and clear as possible that shows the whole loom, including ECU, relay box, loom components (such as coil, ign amp etc) AND pin numbers where applicable. There will be two versions: one to suit an aftermarket ECU and one for the Mi 3-row ECU set-up as being used in this project.

 

[Saveit 0]

Wow good work Rich. Will be of use for many when doing aftermarket engine management conversions in the future. Looking forward to see the loom layout.

 

Cheers,

 

Stefan

Edited September 10, 2009 by Saveit

[BusEngineer 7]

Anything happening with this Rich?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Anything happening with this Rich?

 

Slowly slowly. The XU10 is built (thanks Miles) and I will be throwing that in Goliath's old Miami when I'm home. Should be ready in May.

 

The XU9 is going to have the block and liners decked professionally by either Skip Brown or an old fella that builds Aston Martin engines.

 

As with most things, it's the preparation that takes the time...

 

..oh yeah, and being 3,500 miles away in Afghanistan makes progress drag.

 

All parts are in though, and I have a busy summer ahead of me.

Edited February 27, 2010 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

OK; this is happening as we speak, and the XU10 (86 x 86mm) hybrid engine should be fitted to the Miami shell and in a position to run very soon.

 

But I do have to address the issue - potentially on both engines but almost certainly the XU10 Mi16 hybrid - of the Mi16 yellow Bosch injectors being pushed too far as we eek over 180bhp, which I think is highly likely.

 

The risk is that the mixture leans too much at higher RPMs, so I have considered 3 options, but ruled 1 out to end up with 2 and am seeking some forum/technical advice on the best solution. It may even be a solution I haven't considered:

 

1) Rising rate fuel pressure regulator (FPR) using Mi16 injectors, allowing an increase over 3 BAR to allow the injectors to flow a bit more/enough.

 

2) Using GTI6 injectors but with a variable FPR dialled down/set lower than 3 BAR, e.g. 2.6 BAR such that the higher flow capable GTI6 injectors are working well within their limits, but can out perform the Mi injectors due to the extra head room but not over-fuelling lower down the rev range.

 

Please bear in mind that the ECU is a 3-row Mi16 ECU with PeterT's remapped and higher rev limit chip in. The ECU is still expecting too 'see' Mi16 injectors.

 

Thoughts and ideas please.

[welshpug 1,627]

what's option 3?

 

I don't think the second will work because as you said, the ecu thinks it has MI16 injectors and will fuel accordingly, the fact that the gti6 injectors can flow more fuel at 3 bar, doesn't matter as you're only planning 2.6, you'll hit the same issue unless you raise the pressure.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

3 was to do with a solenoid operated secondary fuel line with a fixed higher FPR, actuated on RPM or AFM signal. It's an idea taken from that Autospeed site.

 

As for the GTI6 injectors, why am I wrong? The ECU doesn't actually know what's connected to it, it just opens/pulses the injectors on and off, and based on a certain injector, the rate of pulse equals a certain amount of fuel AT THE FUEL PRESSURE IT'S EXPECTING to be present.

 

Therefore, if you connect GTI6 injectors straight on, i.e. still at 3 BAR it'll over fuel, as the GTI6 injectors flow more at that pressure.

 

But surely (and I'm happy to be corrected), if the fuel pressure is toned down, the GTI6 injectors can be made to copy the Mi16 injectors in terms of flow rates, but they have more headroom and won't reach above 80% duty cycle, or in fact anywhere near it, which is what we're trying to avoid with the Mi16 injectors.

 

Am I making sense?