Turbo Manifolds

[wracing 19]

right I’ve drawn an engine bay, I’ve drawn most of the datum points of the engine, still have to extrapolate the engine its self, inlet manifolds drawn, fit all together using mates, verify dimension on my 205 turbo 8v and my local garages 16v.

 

I’m not been funny but this has to be the 11th different type of manifold I’ve designed using this software solution and it has reduced cost and time to market 10 fold every time.

 

If you understood CFD you would know that it is one of the main underpinnings of the modern day engine, with out such technology no new car would meet the eu emission laws.

 

I hate to tell you this but they design multimillion pound oil rigs on the software applications I use, they go together with out a hitch, a 205 is tiny I’m sure that I can fit in 7 small pipes in.

 

At the end of the day as pointed out by another forum member the manifold will be trailed in a car before any group buys become available.

 

I’m not trying to compete with dp engineering I’m trying to give the guys on here a cheap solution that works. DIY BABY!!!

 

I will just make one small point, every bend that’s radius is not a function of velocity and viscosity, diffuses the incoming pulse energy converting it from pulsed laminar flow to a full turbulant stream with a laminar component.

 

Assuming the above is true (simulations publications and practical results prove) tell me why brilliant unnamed company produces this:

 

 

And that is assumed the best thing in the world nothing can beat it?

 

I like to reference formula one in my designs, very good incite:

 

 

HMMMMMM……..

 

I will stand corrected, but every compressor map for a t4 frame I have looked at fitted to a 2.0-2.5 engine will end up with the turbo operating past the surge line and way out of any of the efficiency contours. Very worrying!!

 

Any way guys I’m still playing with the 8v design

 

Stainless prices came back today, and I still need to find a company that will support my quest for decent value for money!

[wracing 19]

rapidmi,

 

That’s so good do you what my job

 

I draw everything so I can visualise the whole thing, all mocked up on the computer with a static turbine i run heat transfer simulations so I can see if you’re going to cook you brake fluid or bubble the paint on the tunnel.

 

I can even tell you within +-3psi your back pressure in your exhaust!

 

In my opinion cad is they way forward for the diyman, we can sit in front to the computer with a beer for a few nights, then go outside (sober ) and make it right first time!

[sounds of silence 2]

right I’ve drawn an engine bay, I’ve drawn most of the datum points of the engine, still have to extrapolate the engine its self, inlet manifolds drawn, fit all together using mates, verify dimension on my 205 turbo 8v and my local garages 16v.

 

I’m not been funny but this has to be the 11th different type of manifold I’ve designed using this software solution and it has reduced cost and time to market 10 fold every time.

 

If you understood CFD you would know that it is one of the main underpinnings of the modern day engine, with out such technology no new car would meet the eu emission laws.

 

I hate to tell you this but they design multimillion pound oil rigs on the software applications I use, they go together with out a hitch, a 205 is tiny I’m sure that I can fit in 7 small pipes in.

 

At the end of the day as pointed out by another forum member the manifold will be trailed in a car before any group buys become available.

 

I’m not trying to compete with dp engineering I’m trying to give the guys on here a cheap solution that works. DIY BABY!!!

 

I will just make one small point, every bend that’s radius is not a function of velocity and viscosity, diffuses the incoming pulse energy converting it from pulsed laminar flow to a full turbulant stream with a laminar component.

 

 

Assuming the above is true (simulations publications and practical results prove) tell me why brilliant unnamed company produces this:

 

 

And that is assumed the best thing in the world nothing can beat it?

 

I like to reference formula one in my designs, very good incite:

 

 

HMMMMMM……..

 

I will stand corrected, but every compressor map for a t4 frame I have looked at fitted to a 2.0-2.5 engine will end up with the turbo operating past the surge line and way out of any of the efficiency contours. Very worrying!!

 

Any way guys I’m still playing with the 8v design

 

Stainless prices came back today, and I still need to find a company that will support my quest for decent value for money!

 

 

make me laugh there i seen a pic of your race car its like something mr dyson would be proud of due to the fact you cant make a intercooler fit into a 205 neat i will stand corrected if you ever manage to make a 16v turbo manifold at all never mind neat !!

 

and do u know every detail about my t4 to be able to follow its efficiency contours i would think not

 

and as to my engine spec iv not seen anyone come close to the power its producing

 

please try a 16v turbo conversion into a 205 before mouthing off as its a different ball game anyone who has done one will tell you

[wracing 19]

hmm that car was rebuilt paint mapped and setup in a week and a bit on £500 you really think I’m worried about an intercooler not been straight. More smile to the gallon than I could ever have if I’ve parted with 10,000+ or what ever figure it is. You’ve got to work with what you’ve got, turns out just an adjustment in the mountings that I was to lazy to do and just wanted to have fun on the day instead of fannying with aesthetic issues. Also if you saw that mount you would understand the engineering that went into it, as it supports fans, rad, oil and intercoolers.

 

I’m really not mouthing off I’m defending my idea as you’ve come along going its s*** its s***. All I’m trying to do is explore new ideas at low cost. What wrong with that??

 

i assume you define mouthing off as simply discussing FACTS, anyhow please don’t post anymore its s*** s***, I’m all up for constructive critics, for example

 

 

It all looks good, a couple of comments from me

 

1) I'd make the head flange with expansion gaps in- one straight length like that can potentially expand quite a lot with the heat input you will get.

 

2) I'd also make it 10mm, it will pull less when welding.

 

3) I think mild steel may not be ideal- because of the carbon content it will be more prone to cracking especially in the welded areas (HAZ). Although more costly I'd investigate stainless- specifically 321 grade.

 

no offence but you remind me about all the old boys at the workshop, when you give them a new design, there all like it cant be done it cant be done.

 

In my opinion the t4 frame is to large for 2-2.5 engine application and a smaller turbo may work more efficiently. But if its work for you great I would like to know what combos of wheels and housing you’ve used??

 

Anyhow very well done on your conversion from the pic I can remember it does look smart! Did you encounter any clearance issues?

[sounds of silence 2]

hmm that car was rebuilt paint mapped and setup in a week and a bit on £500 you really think I’m worried about an intercooler not been straight. More smile to the gallon than I could ever have if I’ve parted with 10,000+ or what ever figure it is. You’ve got to work with what you’ve got, turns out just an adjustment in the mountings that I was to lazy to do and just wanted to have fun on the day instead of fannying with aesthetic issues. Also if you saw that mount you would understand the engineering that went into it, as it supports fans, rad, oil and intercoolers.

 

I’m really not mouthing off I’m defending my idea as you’ve come along going its s*** its s***. All I’m trying to do is explore new ideas at low cost. What wrong with that??

 

i assume you define mouthing off as simply discussing FACTS, anyhow please don’t post anymore its s*** s***, I’m all up for constructive critics, for example

 

 

 

 

no offence but you remind me about all the old boys at the workshop, when you give them a new design, there all like it cant be done it cant be done.

 

In my opinion the t4 frame is to large for 2-2.5 engine application and a smaller turbo may work more efficiently. But if its work for you great I would like to know what combos of wheels and housing you’ve used??

 

Anyhow very well done on your conversion from the pic I can remember it does look smart! Did you encounter any clearance issues?

 

not slating the design mate and certainly not the price etc as if you were to make them and they worked in function and fitted with no problems then i would be the first to buy .

 

im more getting to the point of even doing the design on the computer like your doing you cant possibly make them to fit 100% but you did say you would be making them first to try them so good as you will find it will be quite hard going to make them to be able to fit everything in and still have the clearance etc.

 

as for mine yes clearance issues every 5 mins on it basically far too much getting crammed into one engine bay lol.

 

hope you understand what i mean .

 

dave

[wracing 19]

Yep I get you, I just get frustrated when people 'seam' to slag them off, they take hours to do, I’m just trying to reduce time in my cold garage and possibly help every one out in the process.

 

And oi leave my pig out of this its meant for one thing only terrorising people on the track may not look pretty but it works surprisingly well!

 

In a dream world I want a mani that will just slot on the car just like the Mazda, Honda boys

 

You’ll laugh when you find out end goal is to shoe horn a charger in there as well. i do like pushing my luck!

[wracing 19]

ok I think that this is going to be about it for the 8v manifold (behind engine) I cant see any other solutions without going crazy tell me what you think and ill produce some technical drawings.

 

Flange to back of t28 turbo 224.5mm (that’s 90 degrees from the head, remember the engines laying back!!!)

Centre exhaust port to oil return on t28 is 163mm

Clears mc (double check when it’s warm!)

Clears gear linkage

Space for your bad boy exhaust

 

Your going to love the next bit it will fit large turbos which is good!

 

Price one off (get cheaper with volume)

 

Head flange £16

Weld bends £4.95*6

Pipe £10

Turbo flange £8

Total £63.7

 

Donation to James £5

 

I don’t believe in horse power statements but with 41mm id primaries 4 to 1 collector, etc etc I think you’ll be melting pistons before you find inefficiencies with the manifold.

 

Flow results are now been compiled ve(exhaust) in cyl 1 and 4 is down 1.5% on 2 and 3. But then 1 and 4 contribute more energy to the turbine(i have to read up on this im not sure why its doing it some thing to do with the longer runners) so really it all balances into a nice equilibrium, I will run the thermal tonight so no one goes cooking valves

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please let me know what you think!

[James_R 3]

Looks pertty slick, would you be able to do the downpipe aswell, as it's all well and good mounting a turbo easily, but mating the downpipe always seems to be a mess (as per the manifold pictured on the previous page)

 

James

[bales 1]

i take it you havent had much dealings with pug 16v turbo conversions ??

 

i cant see how you could simulate all the things above on a computer and make it spot on alot of trial and error will have to go into a design now just make up something on a computer

 

and am sorry i didnt go to uni and play on computer but i do these in real life day in day out !

 

Sorry to take this a bit off topic but I am going to reply to this, as I'm sure that wrracing will agree with me here.

 

Your opinion above is blatantly based on somone who does design on a trial and error basis and thinks all this CAD malarkey is rubbish. Yes I did go to uni and 'play' on computers but unfortunately that was a few years ago now and I now have to do this stuff as a job.

 

I work in the process industry i.e chemical plants and do the design work mainly on 3D CAD.

 

We don't have the luxury of being able to trial and error fit components, the whole point of CAD is that you do it once and you do it right. When a new vessel or pipework or whatever goes in, the plant has to be shutdown, when the plant is shutdown it doesn't make any product which means it doesn't make any money for that period of time.

 

Naturally if whatever you have designed doesn't fit then it has to be kept shutdown longer the company loses money and the designers get bollocked. So yes we have to get it right first time, and yes you can simulate all these things on computers.

 

In comparison to some of the complex systems used on plants a 205 turbo manifold isn't really massively complicated.

[bales 1]

ok I think that this is going to be about it for the 8v manifold (behind engine) I cant see any other solutions without going crazy tell me what you think and ill produce some technical drawings.

 

Flange to back of t28 turbo 224.5mm (that’s 90 degrees from the head, remember the engines laying back!!!)

Centre exhaust port to oil return on t28 is 163mm

Clears mc (double check when it’s warm!)

Clears gear linkage

Space for your bad boy exhaust

 

Your going to love the next bit it will fit large turbos which is good!

 

Price one off (get cheaper with volume)

 

Head flange £16

Weld bends £4.95*6

Pipe £10

Turbo flange £8

Total £63.7

 

Donation to James £5

 

I don’t believe in horse power statements but with 41mm id primaries 4 to 1 collector, etc etc I think you’ll be melting pistons before you find inefficiencies with the manifold.

 

Flow results are now been compiled ve(exhaust) in cyl 1 and 4 is down 1.5% on 2 and 3. But then 1 and 4 contribute more energy to the turbine(i have to read up on this im not sure why its doing it some thing to do with the longer runners) so really it all balances into a nice equilibrium, I will run the thermal tonight so no one goes cooking valves

 

Please let me know what you think!

 

Looks nice but my comments from having a 2.0 turbo'd car would be that the most space in my engine bay is where the battery used to be as I have that whole area unused.

 

The 16V turbo's always seem to have the side mount manifold and you would be able to get the equal length runners in. If you look at the DP mani i.e the love collector 2 the only way it can get equal length runners is to turn it into a top mount turbo and use very tight radius bends which isn't ideal for flow and still gives packaging issues with the MC.

 

I know that you are increasing the length of the runners in a side-mount which isn't ideal as you lose some of the energy as the gas cools, but as you showed in the BMW F1 mani that had long runners for a turbo mani and I guess that wasn't cauing any issues with performance!! plus it will have to be lagged anyway if it is a sidemount.

 

It seems to me that if you have it dropped down the back of the engine in near enough standard position then you will always be compromised in design to just get the thing to fit, your current design is sort of inbetween being a log type and equal length with it having the two shorter central runners.

 

The side mount to me seems ideal and the only major issue is the downpipe but DP do them off the shelf anyway. If you want to go for the behind engine position why don't you look at making it into more of a split pulse design so the collector is more of a 4-2 so you get more of a defined pulse, though that might be hard to weld internally.

 

I would be interested in one though aslong as it ok reliability wise, i.e no cracks and stress points from hanging a turbo off it. That seems to be the hardest aspect to design from a virtual sense and will probably need some testing to find out where any weak points are.

 

Alex

[wracing 19]

This is very much a compromise like you say for people who still want to run there turbos behind the engine. I think the going rate for a second hand 2.0turbo mani is about £50 so for £14 more I thought it make be a good alternative.

 

Stainless isn’t a option yet with is, a pain, but I recon to would be about £100

 

the 8v side mount is coming trying to get some larger radius bends, all the bends i can find are a function of there diameter!

 

Thanks for the comments

[wracing 19]

Yes I can design the down pipe, I need to source the bends but off the top of my head it will be available in 2.5,3,4"

[weejimmy 1]

so is what you get basicly the flanges collector and the bends? all lose and you have to tig it up yourself? dose the bends come pre cut to the perfect angles?

or dose the runners all come welded and you weld on the flanges or what??

im confusled sorry?

[wracing 19]

Well the basic idea is that you have 3 options

 

1) diy weld

You receive:

Flanges

Pre-cut and chamfered pipes

Pre-cut and chamfered bends (so they fit together nicely)

Technical drawings

Basic assembly guide

 

2) made (only available in lot of 5, so I would need 5 orders before I can make it cheap)

You receive:

A complete unit pre welded and ready to fit

Technical drawings

Basic assembly guide

 

3) Proper diy

Technical drawings

Basic assembly guide

 

We are still a while till a group buy becomes available, as design need finishing and testing needs to take place.

[bales 1]

Well the basic idea is that you have 3 options

 

1) diy weld

You receive:

Flanges

Pre-cut and chamfered pipes

Pre-cut and chamfered bends (so they fit together nicely)

Technical drawings

Basic assembly guide

 

2) made (only available in lot of 5, so I would need 5 orders before I can make it cheap)

You receive:

A complete unit pre welded and ready to fit

Technical drawings

Basic assembly guide

 

3) Proper diy

Technical drawings

Basic assembly guide

 

We are still a while till a group buy becomes available, as design need finishing and testing needs to take place.

 

To be honest I would have thought the most labour intensive part of the manifold is the welding hence why the DP manifolds are so expensive.

 

That level of welding to me at least, doesn't look like it is particulalry suited to DIY, so even though the manifold may be cheap in component form it is going to cost a fair whack for someone to weld it up for you to a good standard. Also the standard of the welding is what defines how reliable it is to cracks etc...and also how well it flows internally...

 

Without sounding rude I think you have done in effect what is the easy bit, and left the actual part that makes the difference between a good manifold and a bad manifold to someone else.

[wracing 19]

well that’s a fair comment, there is a small engineering firm down the road who build this sort of thing for trucks, tractors, etc etc they do manifolds, exhausts, fuel tanks, and have said around 300 inc material all in if its prepped and tacked, I’ve seen there work and its very impressive. They said they would use a combination of tig and mig to reduce cost.

 

The only reason I’ve created the designs, is because I’ve spotted some impressive welders on the forum and I know the skill are out there.

 

I mean if you do a quick search on Google the quality of welding on some diy manifold is horrendous. When talking to the people who fitted them they have gone and done 40,000 mile on a mani that looks like birds*it!

 

All the runners can be welded with 130amp mig easily, and with out preheating, tig is the best process for runners to flange.

 

Keep the comments coming

[weejimmy 1]

i dont think welding these up is in easy reach of the diyer,

imagine trying to get a mig welder in between the two middle runners where they join the flange for the head.

its realy more specialised than you may think.

 

 

but price is good.

£6 for a bend on its own is a ok price never mind one thats been pre cut to a specific angle and champherd. but i would not champher them anyway personaly.

 

i think you are trying to get somthing good and cheap that realy cant be done

hats off to you for trying to save every one money thoe.

i would guess it costs dp etc around £600 to make these in time materials and gas (purge welded)

so i cant see a good alternative for much less.

 

just my 2ps

[wracing 19]

I have a 5 axis cnc, that how I was planning on cutting the bends. if not nothing a bit of plasma cant sort out. the reason I said put chamfers on is for ease and better penetration. tbh welding access on the manifold is great the only tight bit it between 2 and 3 like you say you can get a mig torch close enough to get weld round, the rest is easy.

[weejimmy 1]

ahh i didnt relise you were tooled up quite so well lol

well its a fair amout of work for you to do for free but its up to you.

 

ill keep an aye on this to see how it turns out

[wracing 19]

i dont think i could sell for profit something that is still very much in development. mabye after 10,000miles of hard use but not before!

[jplautomotive 0]

ok I think that this is going to be about it for the 8v manifold (behind engine) I cant see any other solutions without going crazy tell me what you think and ill produce some technical drawings.

 

Flange to back of t28 turbo 224.5mm (that’s 90 degrees from the head, remember the engines laying back!!!)

Centre exhaust port to oil return on t28 is 163mm

Clears mc (double check when it’s warm!)

Clears gear linkage

Space for your bad boy exhaust

 

Your going to love the next bit it will fit large turbos which is good!

 

Price one off (get cheaper with volume)

 

Head flange £16

Weld bends £4.95*6

Pipe £10

Turbo flange £8

Total £63.7

 

Donation to James £5

 

I don’t believe in horse power statements but with 41mm id primaries 4 to 1 collector, etc etc I think you’ll be melting pistons before you find inefficiencies with the manifold.

 

Flow results are now been compiled ve(exhaust) in cyl 1 and 4 is down 1.5% on 2 and 3. But then 1 and 4 contribute more energy to the turbine(i have to read up on this im not sure why its doing it some thing to do with the longer runners) so really it all balances into a nice equilibrium, I will run the thermal tonight so no one goes cooking valves

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please let me know what you think!

 

 

now that is what i am after ! for when i do my turbo 8v . what does a t28 come on as stock ?

 

put me down for one , and i can weld well lol

 

jonny

[jonnyturbo 3]

sorry if i have not read every post but will the 8v turbo manifolds come top mount? i have the 8v turbo in the 306 and there is no room down the back for a bigger turbo, if so put another jonny down for one

[wracing 19]

thanks for the support guys, ive been away this weekend so progress has been slow, i believe that the turbo comes standard on the nissan skyline r32. you can have any flange you need, t3 t25, tb25, etc etc

 

im in the process of simplfying the collector on the 8v to allow easier welding, this has no effect on the design im just changing the model.

 

the collector on the 16v mani at the start of this tread is been modified, instead of using a pulse converter, im just going to join at the turbo mouth.

 

hopefully when i get paid i can make some prototypes up soon.

 

top mount will be designed after the 16v is made, but watch this space!!

 

 

 

james

[lybker 26 2 Cars]

hopefully when i get paid i can make some prototypes up soon.

 

top mount will be designed after the 16v is made, but watch this space!!

 

Fits perfectly with my plans - having 2 kids just dont give the same amount of time in the workshop anymore... :-)

 

If I transfer money for a 16v manifold (xu9j4) + downpipe - how quick can you have one ready & what amount you want?

 

turbo used is a GT2860RS

Edited May 19, 2009 by lybker

[wracing 19]

i didn't mean paid by a forum member i meant work.

 

i don't think that i would be happy 'selling' a turbo manifold till im happy that it works well!

 

i am looking to move forward quite quickly, as soon as we have perfected the design and got one easly made ill give you a shout!

 

 

thanks james