Supercharger Direct To Inlet Manifold

[M@tt 77]

Been thinking about my next project my superchargerd GTI6 engine.

 

I''m planning on using an eaton supercharger (hopefully a mp62 if i can get one for a reasonable price) otherwise i'll use the M45 i've got already.

 

I've been doing some internet trawling and found quite a few "kits" for various other cars which don't use any form of intercooler/chargecooler. Instead the supercharger is bolted directly onto a new inlet manifold/head so the charged air is not cooled at all.

 

eg

http://downingatlanta.com/downingatlanta/d...rs_info_new.htm

 

I'm just wondering what peoples thoguths on this are or more importantly experience.

 

I'm aware of the reasons behind cooling the charged air but i'm just wondering about real world applications.

 

Obviously not fitting one would make the project alot easier to complete but if it would be massively detrimental to the cars performance then i'd obvioulsy look to incorporate a intercooler/charge cooler.

 

Looking at the stats on the supercharger (MP62) which was used in the direct to head example above you can see this temperature graph, plotting temp vs rpm's. You can see the difference in temp is quite considereable once its up and running. hence my concern. about not runnign some sort of cooling

 

I'd be interested to hear what people's thought are on it

 

Matt

Edited February 4, 2009 by M@tt

[bales 1]

From what little I can remember from uni about pumps, positive displacment compressors (roots type) can be very efficient but only when operated over small pressure differentials. Which is probably why on your graphs there is such a big difference bewteen low and high boost applications.

 

I would guess if you only want low boost then it would probably be fine but in terms of how detrimental the heat will be on performance there are some basic calcs that I have seen in one of my engine books that enables you to calculate the losses.

 

Dont quite a few standard cars run superchargers without any form of cooling anyway so if the manufacturers do it then you would expect it to have no massive detriment to the safety of the charge.

 

It depends how much power you want and what boost you want to run, get a bigger charger and run it slower!! though you will then take more from the engine so its swings and roundabouts.

 

Sorry if this is an unhelpful post but I don't have any actual experience other than theoretical, what about water injection? but I guess that again is more added expense or methanol!! that runs cooler :lol:

Edited February 4, 2009 by bales

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

To quote from a good book on forced induction, "an intercooler is not the icing on the cake, it is MORE cake"

 

Lower charge temps equals more power from the same boost level, pretty much as simple as that.

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Guy over on PSOOC ran a little water cooled charge cooler. Had its own water pump (electric). This was for a turbo but I imagine you could use the same principle for the SuperC

[Alteran 1]

That's unusual for aftermarket kits not to be intercooled? Looking back in the past, most forced induction manufacturers used intercooling of some type. The Supercharged Corrado G60 was intercooled, the Supercharged Mk1 Mr2 was intercooled as was the Mk2 Mr2 Turbo. Was the Renault 5 GTT?

 

Those cars were all the way back in the late 80's, early 90's. Car manufacturers seem to incorporate some form of charge air cooling so it must be important! Granted, there are cars made without any form of cooling so it must be a performance thing rather than a safety issue otherwise they'd all have one.

 

If i was in your shoes then I would definitely install an intercooler. Or better yet, a chargecooler. Heat soak is a big problem on forced induction vehicles, you really can feel the sap in power after heavy driving. I own an Mr2 turbo and thats a git for power loss from excess heat under the engine bay.

 

Go for it, you'll only regret not installing one!

[M@tt 77]

cheers for the replies chaps

 

i've done a bit more digging and think perhaps a homebrew charger cooler sandwiched between the SC and the head might be a good solution and not overly complex

 

http://website.lineone.net/~srbrock/modifications.html

 

looking at that site it would seem you could probably make something suitable from an air con matrix. I guess it would be a case of finding a suitable sized one with suitable outlets, a trip to the scrappy at some point is in order me thinks

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

Hi Matt, yout supercharger project looks interesting. I have made made a few supercharge kits without the use of an air to air or water to air. You should be ok if you run fairly low boost, say 3-5 lbs. but once you start going any higher the air temps will start rising and the fun stops. This is based on std comp ratios. you could of course try ignition retard and water injection.

In my experiance it's always best to keep air temps down as best as you can and never cut corners.

If you cannot find the room for a air to air then may be go for a water to air. Below are some links for you to ponder.

ps: If i was going to build a water to air chargcooler then i would be using laminova intercooler tubes.

Cheers.

 

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2468586

ebay Item number: 170296126329

http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/superchargers.html

[M@tt 77]

do you think a mocal oil cooler such as this could be used as a suitable heat exchanger core in a chargecooler with coolant running through it rather than oil? and then use another cooler as the rad?

 

the outlet on the supercharger is approx 12cm high x 19.5cm wide so if i'm going to build a sandwich chargecooler between the SC and new inlet plenum the core would ideally be about 12cm high and the length that the inlet runners span so approx 30/40cm i would guess. Would this be a sufficient size to be effective?

 

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I think that would be crap, sorry!

[M@tt 77]

do you mean the one pictured or one in the size mentioned?

[M@tt 77]

those laminova tubes look really good! and each one is apparently good for 150bhp so i guess i would need 2 and they'd probably fit the bill size wise as well!!

[tracktoy 0]

some mercs run sc's without cooling

 

i like the idea of fitting a sandwich plate between the charger and the inlet, the reduced induction length should give a better response (not that its much of a problem with superchargers), and make for a neat install

 

you could use the oil cooler but a better option imo would be a small radiator from something like a motorbike as the fins and tubes would be better spaced

 

you would also need a small electric pump such as an auxiliary water pump fitted to the vw t4 and some bmw's

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

I have seen a supercharged 8v 205 with the Rotex charger (I think) bolted straight onto the bottom of the inlet manifold. A lot can be managed by a clever ECU compared to the old school cars, however inlet temp cannot without water injection. The T16 runs a charge cooler that is the same as a 2.1 XM DTurbo engine. Some Subarus have a small boxy C-cooler too

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

chargecoolers always seem to complex and heavy to me. If you use the m45 i'd say you defo want some sort of cooling though as you'll be revving its ballls off to get decent power.

 

why is it you think an air to air cooler is to complicated? when i was looking at the options for mine I thought the air to air was the easiest way to do it

 

get on ebay.com and look for m90s they're alot cheaper than m62s and have much much more potential

Edited February 8, 2009 by allanallen

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

If you use a E45 your going to need some cooling. I cant remember the exact temps inlet to out temps the charger was running but they werent good. With the cooler I wasnt seeing anything more than a few of degrees above ambient (inlet).

 

I'm running a modified water based cooler from a Jag.

 

Cooler

 

More pics at:

My Website

 

Mad

[M@tt 77]

cheers gents

 

been having a bit of a trawl on tinternet again and found this pretty good site about someone who made a custom charge cooler from an audi TDI intercooler.

 

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=113515

 

based on the size i think i'm going to need to fit between the SC and the inlet i doubt i'll find a IC then fits the bill size/shape wise off the shelf.

 

i'm pretty sure i'd be able to find a cooler the right width but they are going to be alot taller than i need, but to retain the cooling capability i wonder if it's possible to cut the intercooler in half (long ways) and then stack the cores one behind the other so that it's effectively double thickness. Obvioulsy suitable end tanks would need to be fitted but i just wondered if it'd be possible?

 

what do you think?

Edited February 8, 2009 by M@tt

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

If I were you I'd worry about intercooling when you've got everything in place and you know how much room you have to play with, I've got 3 intercoolers as possibles for my turbo, but I'll decide which when everything is in and offer them up.

[M@tt 77]

oh i also trial offered up the M45 on the GTI6 engine just to get an very rough idea of how it might sit

 

with the pulleys lined up, the SC sits quite far over and the outlet is directly line up directly with cylinders 1 and 2. Would it make any difference to cylinders 3 and 4 that the air is being forced out of the sc directly at cylinders 1 and 2 or will it be the case that the inlet is pressurised as a whole and so it really wouldn't make any difference

 

 

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

will you modify your bonnet to allow it to close, it looks like it might not close. and what belt idle system do you think you will use.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I dont think its ideal to have it blowing directly into 2 ports. I remember someone explaing to me how there engine kept destroying piston no.1 as there manifold shape was effecting the boost pressure it was recieving, so i dont know if your setup would have a similar effect. Dont take this as gospel mind as i'm really not clued up on it

 

Like tom says it'll make a lot more sense when youve got the engine in the car without the manifold on. I still rekon an air to air will be alot easier, but you never like the easy option

[M@tt 77]

sorry i should have said the plan is to chop the GTI6 inlet and have the SC sitting roughly where the main chamber of the inlet plenum is. Hopeully that should give me enough space between it and the injectors/fue rail to have suitable charge cooler.

 

i just put the SC ontop of it today with the pulleys lined up to see if there was anything massively obvious that was likely to cause a problem.

 

obvioulsy i'm going to have to move the PAS pump down onto the sump as that it going to be in the way for satrters

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

ok. good luck with your project.

[M@tt 77]

you might be right al

 

i've got a cossie inlet plenum aswell which i originally bought and it's inlet doesn't feed directly at a particular port either.

 

it might be better in that case to have the outlet of the SC pointing up into the new inlet plenum rather than directly at the ports, the cossie plenum also has mini trumpets on the backing plate on the end of the runners which i wonder if they are there to helpp with this sort of problem??

 

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

obvioulsy i'm going to have to move the PAS pump down onto the sump as that it going to be in the way for satrters

 

 

have a look at electric pumps think s*itreon staxos have em and it'll be a sight easier than remounting yours.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

the cossie plenum also has mini trumpets on the backing plate on the end of the runners which i wonder if they are there to helpp with this sort of problem??

 

hmm they might well be

Edited February 8, 2009 by allanallen