Car Wont Start :( Somebody Please Verify My Diagnosis

[jamiej 0]

This afternoon i went to start my 1.9 as i need to put some petrol in it for the trip back home tomorrow morning. (its not empty, just not full and i have a looong way to drive)

 

The car cranks fine, and at a speed which to me sounds like it always has, the car doesn't fire though.

 

I can smell fuel so it must be getting that, could it be ignition amp related.

 

The only reason i think this is due to the fact that its cranking and getting fuel. Leading me to believe the problem is spark related.

The spark plugs are new (ish) and where pretty all singing all dancing (got them on trade so didnt pay loads for them)

 

 

The car has done this before but after axcessive cranking it did finally fire and was happy.

Car has been sat for about a week and its been pretty cold.

 

So, sorry to go on BUT

 

Can anyone lend an idea or opinion to this, i tihnk it may be Ignition Amp, as suggested by the comically large amount of "car wont start threads"

 

How can i check this ?

 

Could it be something more sinister ?

Many thanks in advance

 

Jamie

[Masekwm 2]

Have you got a spark?

[jamiej 0]

I am assuming not, only due to the fact that i am pretty sure that i have fuel ? i know thats a bit of a silly thing to say BUT i am going down to have another look later on and just want to be able to try EVERYTHING in one go as its parked miles away.

 

Is the only way to check by taking the HT leads off and grounding them to the block, i assume any amount of (visual) spark will be enough to fire the cylinder.

[jamiej 0]

oh, just to update, i tried to bump start it and it did fire but quite eratically and it died before i could react and give it some revs.

[matty_gti 20]

Hmm, Test to see if you are actually getting a spark first, you mite be getting a weak one if anything.

 

Matt

[jamiej 0]

im heading out to check for spark and fuel, i will let you know my findings

 

Jamie

[nick 3]

It could just be flooded. Mine did this a while ago (in 8v form) and just wouldn't start, pull all the injector wires off and crank it over to the clear the cylinders (it may even fire as it clears) then try it again.

 

Nick

[mr_exe 1]

It might be worth checking that you have fuel or enough fuel pressure as well.

[jamiej 0]

Well, i dont think i will ever understand this car ....

 

went outside to check for spark and fuel, whipped out number 4, cranked it, fired first time... stuck the plug back in, car is as happy as larry.

 

So ... it was flooded ... what causes this, i understand that i flooded it with the 15 mins of endless cranking but what would start it from starting, just cold ? how do i eliminate this problem !

 

 

I guess thats why i bought a 205 GTI !!!

[jamiej 0]

Well, i dont think i will ever understand this car ....

 

went outside to check for spark and fuel, whipped out number 4, cranked it, fired first time... stuck the plug back in, car is as happy as larry.

 

So ... it was flooded ... what causes this, i understand that i flooded it with the 15 mins of endless cranking but what would start it from starting, just cold ? how do i eliminate this problem !

 

 

I guess thats why i bought a 205 GTI !!!

 

 

its done it again !!

 

Sorry to dig up an old post but my car is misbehaving again.

 

Tried to start it this morning and i've cranked it and cranked it and cranked it ... nothing.

 

So i left for a few hours and tried again, still nothing.

 

So i'm not sure what to do really, i'm going to have a look at the plugs later today to check that im getting spark and fuel but with that game plan can anyone lend any advice/tips/tricks.

 

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Jamie

[AndyJ 1]

Does sound like its a problem with the ignition, try grabbing a new distributor cap/rotor before you go down there...my MI16 decided one day that it would do exactly the same as this (stopped on a roundabout no less, then refused to start again) and it was just cos the dizzy cap was chewed up.

 

If it still wont start after that, pull the leads off the plugs and put them on something earthed to check you're getting a good spark at each one when you crank it... if theres only a problem with one or two its time for new leads, if not pull off the king lead from the dizzy cap and check that is giving a good spark...if not then try a new coil, if that doesnt fix it, check wiring and ignition amp. Work backwards from the plugs basically!

[steve@cornwall 100]

its done it again !!

 

Sorry to dig up an old post but my car is misbehaving again.

 

Tried to start it this morning and i've cranked it and cranked it and cranked it ... nothing.

 

So i left for a few hours and tried again, still nothing.

 

So i'm not sure what to do really, i'm going to have a look at the plugs later today to check that im getting spark and fuel but with that game plan can anyone lend any advice/tips/tricks.

 

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Jamie

 

My first check would be for condensation in the dizzy cap - while it's off clean up the contacts and rotor arm (or better still, replace them) and if it has the inner-wing mounted coil, I'd check for dampness in the king lead socket arcing across the + and - LT wiring

[jamiej 0]

Pulled off no.4 and no spark !

 

So i think im going to have another good look at it when its not dark or rainy.

 

So check everything from the leads back. It strange that it has just started to go bad, it run sweet as a nut yesterday ?

 

Could it be something like the ignition amp ? i have heard that these regularly fail over time and cause starting issues ?

 

thanks

 

Jamie

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

pull the king lead off first and ascertain whether theres a spark there first. the fault could lay with either the cap or the arm.

 

if its not that. check the coil and ignition amplifier and the wiring to it as well.

[bondo 6]

This is very similar to what happened to my wife's 1.6 gti. It would flood and not start but would eventually start (on three cylinders) if you took a plug out to clear the flooding. I am assuming that you are getting spark and any apparent absence is down to a fuel soaked plug.

 

I replaced the engine coolant temperature sensor and it completely sorted the problem. It was an awkward sod to find down the back of the engine near the thermostat.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

It has to be spark/ignition related.

 

Lots of people have asked, but you've only said once that you weren't getting a spark. That's what we need to remedy.

 

Please don't get mad at the poor little car. It's only a chemical reaction relying on fuel, air and a spark being in the right place at the right time. Like a fire triangle, remove one element and it won't work.

 

It sounds to me like, damp > a loose connection > a failing item*.

 

* HT lead(s)

* Rotor arm

* Dizzy cap

* Coil

* & Ignition amp

 

All of these can be checked by a simple one-for-one swap with a known working one from a good forum buddy, or, worst case, buying one. But a coil's only £15 IIRC. And it may cost nothing more than a rag, some WD40 and half an hour's effort.

 

We need to absolutely establish what 'fire triangle' elements you have, and then we can work through this. Don't assume it's something all technical and snazzy like an ignition amp, when it could purely be a loose lead or damp.

 

The car's doing the best it can for you.

[bondo 6]

Well, i dont think i will ever understand this car ....

 

went outside to check for spark and fuel, whipped out number 4, cranked it, fired first time... stuck the plug back in, car is as happy as larry.

 

So ... it was flooded ... what causes this, i understand that i flooded it with the 15 mins of endless cranking but what would start it from starting, just cold ? how do i eliminate this problem !

 

 

I guess thats why i bought a 205 GTI !!!

 

He must be getting a spark if it fired at all. As I said above this was EXACTLY what happened with mine and the temp sensor fixed it.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

He must be getting a spark if it fired at all. As I said above this was EXACTLY what happened with mine and the temp sensor fixed it.

 

I'm not saying it's not the temp sensor, but that's another route for investigation. He may well get a spark as SOMETIMES it starts, which means he may only have a spark sometimes too.

 

One thing at a time I think is best. He did say 'no spark' earlier, so I think it's best to concentrate on ignition first, and knowing whether he has a reliable, strong spark on all 4 cyl first means (hopefully) we can eliminate ignition as the cause of the problem.

 

I'm not sure either whether a coolant temp sensor would have any impact on the existence of a spark or not? What you're suggesting is the sensor is making the engine flood.

 

But it's logical surely to establish whether Jamie even has a spark to ignite the fuel whether there's none, a lot, or just the right amount, rather than steer him towards buying a £15-£30 sensor he may not need?

Edited February 10, 2009 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,622]

could also be an electrical connection between any of the aforementioned components, with a weak or no signal from the Distributor to the ecu (Via the ignition amps) there won't be any injection.

[jamiej 0]

WOW, thanks everyone for your comments and help, I'm going to have another good look when I have some more time, Im at uni at the moment in my last year and my coursework is eating up all my free time.

 

But that said, can i just clear some things up.

 

This has done this before and then remedied itself. However, this time, there is NO SPARK definitely. I have checked, so i think the problem last time was a weak spark that then sorted itself out, be it a wet connection or suchlike, BUT, this time, it seems that the self remedying problem has gone, IE, the small problem has become a bit more permanent.

 

SO, this is my POA.

 

I'm going to take off the king HT lead to establish whether i'm getting any spark to the Dizzy cap, then work my way along.

 

I'm sure, like you all say, it will be a simple fix, but its just an annoyance that i really couldn't be doing with this at the moment.

 

Like I said though, really appreciate your help. I'll let you know how i get on.

 

Jamie

Edited February 10, 2009 by jamiej

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Your POA is fine.

 

I'd go about it this way:

 

- all plugs out, check for condition (may be sooted up to fook now)

- check each HT leads (x5) for arc burns/damage, wipe and WD40 and wipe contacts at both ends

- remove dizzy cap / check contact condition (could be worn down to nubs) / wipe / WD40 & dry off

- check rotor arm solidly fixed / clean it

- remove electrical connections 1 by 1 to coil, ign amp and dizzy, and clean/WD40 and dry in a similar fashion, checking pins are all in place and would make contact as they should. Also check along the wires for bared wires/damaged insulation. Refit them (and everything else) securely.

 

Then try it.

Edited February 10, 2009 by DrSarty

[DamirGTI 325]

The car has done this before but after axcessive cranking it did finally fire and was happy.

 

I've had similar problem once , "an never ending cranking session" was a bit embarrassing as well then , i grab my tools and start tearing the engine bay apart .. tried a lot of things , re-checked everything ten times with multimeter , tried with good spare parts (fuel pump , pressure valve , dizzy cap , rotor arm , coil , injectors , dizzy signal cable etc. etc. ) and finally good un spare ignition amp sorted this behaviour .. was weak spark problem , the engine is modified so i adjusted the mixture a little bit "on the rich side" so the ignition amp was on his way out and it couldn't saturate the coil enough to produce an strong/warm spark to ignite richer mixture ..

 

Apart from basic checks , said you've got fuel , then : plugs/leads -> dizzy cap/arm -> coil -> wiring/connectors on the ignition circuit -> fuel pump relay just in case (as it's connected with the ignition amp as well) id take a good look on the dizzy signal cable , breakdown of this cable will leave you without both the spark and fuel , then id try out with some known good ignition amp ..

 

Tried with easy start spray perhaps ?

 

Damir

[unariciflocos 49 1 Cars]

Most probably the ignition amp or a faulty connection from the ignition amp to the dizzy, or coil feeds. I had similar problems with loose connectors to the coil and a broken connector on the dizzy from the ignition amp.

 

Just pull out the main lead from the coil, hold it 5 mm from the head and see if you have a spark while turning the ignition. If you do it's a distributor/leads/spark plugs problem. If you don't it's most likely a faulty connector/wire/ignition amp/relay. Divide et impera.

[jamiej 0]

Righty,

 

Its sorted, i took off the king lead and tried to get it spark but with no luck, i thne assumed that my problem was from the source side of the ignition rather than from the dizzy.

 

Anyway, just to make sure i took off the dizzy cap jus tto have a look, there was loads of crud on the centre contact, so i cleaned that off and then gave everything a good spray.

 

Bolted it on and checked for spark on plug 3. It was all sticky and black and horrid but when cranking , its sparked and the engine began to fire on the 3 other cylinders, turned it off, put the plug back in and it started, lots of white smoke (fuel i assume !!) but after a while it was all happy again ...

 

So i guess the problem was with a biuld up of crap in the dizzy, and then the flooding.

 

Would this seem to make sense, any other preventative measures i can take to stop this annoynace happening again ?? part from spraying everything with WD40, the dizzy and rotor are halfords replacements, can you get better ones anywhere else ??

 

Thanks for all the help

 

Jamie

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

That sounds ok..ish.

 

White smoke is a concern if it actually IS white, as that could mean oil. Black on the other hand is usually fuel.

 

If the engine was cold when it ran, the good news is the white smoke was unlikely to have been steam. Steam = hot engine = blown head gasket.

 

You will benefit from doing some more checks and 'reporting' back:

 

1) What state are all of the plugs in? Oil black and sooty means over fuelling. Even if you have a good spark, over fuelling will kill the plugs off and give you problems.

 

2) Why is crap getting INTO the dizzy. Was it clipped down correctly? Have the clips distorted or is it like the Mi one and screws down? Either way, there should be no s*it getting inside. Dizzy caps are notorious for hiding cracks; look very carefully.

 

So I think the starting issue was spark related, i.e. it weakened or disappeared, but now you have to find out why to prevent it from re-occurring.

 

That's my advice; but it's standard advice. You appear to have fixed the sypmtoms, but we must establish the cause.

Edited February 11, 2009 by DrSarty