Suspension Set Up

[MiD 0]

Looking for advice and guidance from all the suspension guru’s . I’ve avidly read virtually all the suspension postings on here and have the following plans.

 

My 1.6 GTi has always had a strange knock that happens intermittently, it sounds like a massive creak and can take place on any road surface. It doesn’t happen all the time and on a lengthy journey may not happen at all, have never worked out what it can be but seems to be happening on the near side of the car.

 

When I bought the car a couple of years ago I had it checked over by and independent Peugeot garage who raised a question mark over the rear beam on the near side. Since I’ve had it this has never been looked at but has been able to pass two MOT’s.

 

At the first MOT slight misting on the front nearside suspension unit was raised as an advisory but this was ignored on the subsequent MOT.

 

The car is fairly low mileage and I intend to keep it as a 1.6, however my aim is to have it handle as if it was on rails.

 

My girlfriend bought me four new eagle tyres last year for my birthday which have only done about 2000 miles.

 

Yesterday I collected a rear beam which I bought for what seems a bargain price on Ebay. It is a 309 beam with 23mm torsion bars, 24 mm arb. It has Skip Brown adjustable negative camber stub axles, Bilstein tarmac dampers and solid beam mounts. This was apparently built last year and was used on a track car for about 10 meetings.

 

Probably for my needs totally over the top as I’ve no idea how to adjust the camber and having read and read this forum would probably only need to set it up once then leave well alone. Any advice and guidance would be appreciated. The car will only be used for road use and it seems the amount of negative camber I need is negligible.

 

I’m I correct in thinking that the braided brake lines I currently have on the rear of my 1.6 will not need to be changed to fit the disc set up. If they need to be changed do I buy standard 1.9 lines?

 

The solid beam mount is just that but should there be some sort of synthetic bush?

 

At the front nothing has happened but my initial plan is Bilstein B4 shocks with Eibach -30mm springs and BBM fast road rubbers. Also intend to have all the steering joints checked and replaced if necessary. I’ve considered having power steering fitted or a quick fast rack but keep wavering on this idea. My STDT has power steering and I’m not sure what advantage it would provide on the GTi other than parking. Views on the quick fast rack on the above set up would be appreciated.

 

As I said the aim is to have a road car that goes around corners very fast and is not an absolute pain to drive.

 

Nothing will be fitted for a while as the beam is in England and the car in Scotland this allows me time to ask what many of you will consider basic questions and to gather the parts as necessary.

[McDude 33]

Others will step in with more advice, but the Skip Brown stub axles on my car (i.e. the way Skip Brown set it up) are 1deg neg camber which also gives about 1min of toe in. You'll probably find that this is what they have been set to. This is simply awesome for road and track use.

 

The group A mounts are solid metal at the back and polyurethane at the front. There are guys who love this and those that don't (like all things). Personally I have a group N set up, which is uprated rubber sandwiches plus regular mounts at the front of the rear subframe.

 

With a rear beam that beefy (what you've got is beefier than the SBC phase II), you'll need a beefy front end. Mine is a Skip Brown Phase I front end which is ~25mm lower & uprated with a revalved Bilstein shock. I'm also running group N top mount rubbers.

 

With this your 205 will stick like sh1t to a blanket.

[pug_ham 241 3 Cars]

I think you'll struggle to get the rear wheels to clear the arches with a 309 beam & the SBC negative camber kit fitted but you'll need some stiffer springs than the Eibachs to suit the rear beam or it'll understeer like mad imo.

 

The braided lines on the 1.6 set up will be fine but you'll either need the two additional lines to run from the solid on the radius armto the caliper or as is used on the 306 with rear discs make a copper pipe from the flexi around the beam to the caliper instead. Its the flexis around the beam that are different between the 1.6 & 1.9 GTi.

 

I've got the group A BBM kit fitted to my 205 & I think it ride better now with the full group A kit than it did before with the Group N rear mounts & standard front bushes (albeit 18 years old) with the same Bilstein group N tarmac shocks fitted.

 

Gaham.

[nick 3]

I would have thought that negative camber on a 309 beam would give more clearance on the arches, unless the SBC kit widens the track even more.

 

Nick

[welshpug 1,626]

It does indeed.

 

IIRC its a longer stub axle and an alloy spacer but I can't find any pictures.

[MiD 0]

As I said in the original post the beam is probably a much higher spec than my needs but as it was the right price it seemed too good an oppurtunity to miss. Whilst I want better handling I still want a useable car that I can put more than a bag of shopping in before it starts rubbing on the arches.

 

A wee bit concerned that it will rub on the arches with the current beam as it is set up, would raising the height not solve this problem or would it be raised that much that the benefits of the beam are cancelled by this action.

A search has indicated numerous cars with the 309 beam which run with no problems, and a couple of picture threads have proved useful in that purely for asthetic reasons it seems a good move though I accept some posters consider the smaller beam as being better for a drivers car. However, unless I've missed it I cannot find any posts about a 309 beam with the negative camber kit on a purely road going car. If anyone has experience of this I would be interested to hear of any potential problems. Pictures would also be useful.

 

I was able to work out that I would need extra lines for the brakes at the back but it is good to know that I can use the two existing lines then have another two made up. Will existing 1.9 lines fit straight on.

 

As for the front suspension Pugtorque's and McDudes posts has been useful and will keep reading in an attempt to find the best route to go. Again advice is always useful and appreciated.

 

My car is soley for road use and apart from raids into England it will be spending most of its time in the North of Scotland where corner follows corner.

Edited November 2, 2008 by MiD

[McDude 33]

It does indeed.

 

IIRC its a longer stub axle and an alloy spacer but I can't find any pictures.

It has a machined alloy spacer that pushes the track out by ~15mm each side (not measured, just guessing!) if you want a picture I can take one. The effect of the neg camber means no rubbing at all.

 

In MiD's case there could easily be some rubbing as it is combined with the 309 beam.

 

MiD - I'd be tempted to strip your bargain beam down and make a SBC 205 beam up - embarassingly I can't remember the exact SBC spec (embarassing because I have it fitted) but do a search and others have the recipe. The 'unique' bit is the stub axles, which you now have - you should be able to source the right spec TBs and ARB and build it up with your current 205 beam and the bilstien shocks which you also have. You'll get good money for a 309 beam and the rest.

 

Could end up with a low-cost SBC phase II set up - nice!

[pug_ham 241 3 Cars]

The SBC Roadspeed phase 2 rear beam spec afaik is 20mm tb's & 23mm arb.

 

Graham.

[Super Josh 4]

I think that a 309 beam with the neg camber kit will be way too wide for the 205's arches. Has the previous owner of the beam had it fitted successfully?

 

 

 

Josh

[Batfink 201]

is it impossible to roll out the arches on the 205? I know they are not circular but you dont need that. Use a nylon hammer to knead it all out

[MiD 0]

This has cost me a few sleepless nights and hours spent on google and this forum figuring out which way to go. As far as I can make out the track difference between the 205 and 309 is 39mm the Skip Brown alloy plates are 9mm each making a total difference in the track of 57mm or approximately 30mm on either side.

 

I don't have the Gti here but have just been out to look at the STDT and I would guess that there is no chance that the wheels could come out 30mm either side without causing problems. However with negative camber would the top of the tyre not move in about 10mm. If this is so then the overall difference on each side would be about 20mm which hopefully may be enough to use the beam as it is. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

If I am wrong then we go to plan B which is to remove the Skip Brown kit and run with the basic 309 beam.

[pug_ham 241 3 Cars]

A standard 309 beam with the ride height set so to lowered approx 30mm from a standard 205 beam catches the arch trims occasionally with just the driver in on some corners but add any extra weight & it'll catch more.

 

The added width of the SBC negative camber kit when set to maximum wouldn't move the top of the wheel in 10mm imo when set to 1' neg camber like McDude's.

 

Graham.

[Super Josh 4]

If I am wrong then we go to plan B which is to remove the Skip Brown kit and run with the basic 309 beam.

 

My plan B would be to remove the 309 beam and fit the SBC camber kit to a 205 beam.

 

 

 

Josh

[mattbenselin 0]

I have a standard 205 rear beam with 20mm spacers on it and imo you would not want to go any wider. I find my wheels can catch quite easily with the trim so 30mm each side would be too much, also they would stick out too much. At the moment they sit just as wide as the arches which matches the front of mine nicely I think (front: 1.6 set-up with speedlines).

 

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

If you want to keep the 'filled' arch looks, sell the SBC neg camber kitted arms and get some standard 309 arms, or even ZX ones if you can find some.

 

ZX arms offer a bit more camber than 309 items, without the wider track issue

[MiD 0]

Thank you to all who have posted here, this has been a crash course about rear beams camber and all things associated.

 

Yesterday I contacted the person I bought the beam from who again assured me that it would fit on a 205, he said he ran 7inch rims with a 215 tyre and no adjustments to the rear arches. However the combined knowledge on here was making me pessimistic and I've just finished speaking to Skip Brown (not the man himself) who agreed with this forum and said it is far too wide.

 

So it looks as if I have to either junk the Skip Brown kit or keep it and place it on a 205 beam. At the moment my thoughts are to keep the 309 beam and get rid of the Skip Brown kit.

 

I was hoping to take this beam to Scotland next week ready to fit to the Gti but this may have to be postponed. Anyone out there willing to swap the trailing arms over to standard, I know that ZX arms seems the way to go so if anyone can do this it would be even better. The intention is to garage the Gti for the winter so time is not a major issue.

 

Off work until Friday so could deliver the beam in the next few days and pick up whenever, obviously payment and a fairly new Skip Brown kit would be part of the deal. Distance may not be a problem.

[Batfink 201]

why dont you just try to fit it. We are all speculating as we have not used this setup. The guy you bought it off has apparently ran this setup.

It may be it fits - it may be he did not run his car very low - it may be he's telling porkies to get his sale.

Personally as now you have it i'd have a go at fitting it.

[GLPoomobile 958]

why dont you just try to fit it. We are all speculating as we have not used this setup. The guy you bought it off has apparently ran this setup.

It may be it fits - it may be he did not run his car very low - it may be he's telling porkies to get his sale.

Personally as now you have it i'd have a go at fitting it.

 

True. What's the worst that can happen? You waste a few hours, half a day tops, swapping beams. Get it on, get someone to climb in the boot and bounce, and see how it looks.

[McDude 33]

Batfink and GLP are right - try it and it might work!

 

 

My plan B would be to remove the 309 beam and fit the SBC camber kit to a 205 beam.

 

Josh

That'd be my plan B too!

 

 

That's what a 205 looks like on SBC kit! Rides so well on track and on bumpy B-roads.

Edited November 4, 2008 by pugtorque
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