205 Gti6 Occasionally Cutting Out

[CaptainK 11]

So, after a dead engine, then a rebuilt engine its looked like it was going to be plain sailing. Then it failed its MOT (see my recently topic on that within this section) which was cured by a new lambda probe as the old one was shot.

 

Whilst driving it back from the garage today it decided to idle a bit funny whilst waiting at a crossroads. I.e. tried to idle at around 700rpm instead of its usual 900rpm and sounded different. Only did this briefly, then recovered. Later as the traffic lights changed I pulled off and across the junction. I'm still accelerating and then suddenly I loose all power and the car starts to slow. I dip the clutch so I can use my momentum to carry me across the crossroads. At this time the engine is trying to idle at 500rpm and doesn't sound very happy with it. Possible misfire? :?

I pull onto the side with my hazards on and after another 5 seconds the engine idle returns to normal and I can happily drive off. Fill up with petrol shortly after and set off down the road. Onto a very long sliproad leading up to a dually accelerating and again it decides to loose power, but this time only briefly in comparison - 5 seconds max for the entire thing.

 

It should also be noted that the engine hates being started - the engine will turn over and try desperately to start. After 3-4 tries it will start and runs happily afterwards.

 

Its history:

Rebuilt recently and has done over 1000 miles since rebuild. It also has unknown Catcams running on standard GTi6 ignition timing settings.

I think the gearbox speed sensor (for ECU) was changed.

MOT failed on huge emissions - well above even a NO-CAT test. New ECU temp sensor installed with no change. New Lambda probe installed and that cured it.

 

 

Can anyone give any advice on what I should look for ? I'm pretty much out of money after the original install, then the rebuild and then the MOT failures and so forth and can't really afford to take it back to the garage for a while.

[rossi 0]

Remove the stepper motor and clean it spotless. My 205 gti6 occassionally cuts out, and so did my old 306 gti6. Had to replace the stepper on the 306 with another magnetti marrelli and it was fine after that.

[taylorspug 7]

K, after we spoke i also thought of the stepper motor, as Rossi mentions above, get it off and hoon some brake cleaner and WD40 down it and see if that makes a difference. It may also be whats affecting my car on occasion aswell...

[Super Josh 4]

Seems a few people on the 306 forum have had stepper motor failure. When taken apart they are just cheaply made Italian s*ite and seem to be quite worn. So if a good clean up doesn't sort it, maybe it's past its sell by date and needs to be binned for a new one.

 

Don't seem to be as well made as the Bosch ICVs on MIs etc.

 

 

Josh

[CaptainK 11]

Thanks for that, I'll attack the ICV soon when I get time. Probably tomorrow.

 

A little more on the problem from observing:

The "hesitation / stutter" appears to occur only after about a mile of driving. i.e. when cold its fine, and when at operating temperature its fine as well. But for a little time between cold and hot it does this little stutter. After chatting with "TaylorsPug" (thanks for that mate) I've found that to stop it cutting out I simply ditch the clutch, rev the engine a few times and then it clears and I can re-engage the clutch and drive off.

 

I have one question to ask, being a mechnical newbie, but how can an idle control valve affect the car when the engine is running and is on throttle ? I don't know how the GTi6 ICV works, but on my FTO the ICV does nothing until the TPS registers its on idle throttle setting.

 

Thanks again for the advice, and thanks again to David who PM'd me. Looks like I might be taking you up on that offer afterall.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Loose connection somewhere in the loom, a common problem with the 205 now

[dazEmad 0]

I had a similar issue with cutting out / misfiring, we changed every part and i mean every part imaginable and still it was never found.

 

The only way it was cured was to bin the loom and go dta and tb's.

[speedyandy 0]

Could it not be a dodgey earth? i've seen a few cars have problems starting because the large earth cable which goes from the gearbox to the wing having crappy connections try taking them off giving them a clean and put back on.

[Alastairh 47]

Seems a few people on the 306 forum have had stepper motor failure. When taken apart they are just cheaply made Italian s*ite and seem to be quite worn. So if a good clean up doesn't sort it, maybe it's past its sell by date and needs to be binned for a new one.

 

Don't seem to be as well made as the Bosch ICVs on MIs etc.

 

 

Josh

 

Mine use to have the bad day. Cleaned it a couple of times. But never really pissed me off to a total failiure.

 

Any idea on the original part number (I havent got any 6 bits lying around at the min) as i may have a nose to see if any other cars have them at the scrappy at the weekend with the same part number.

 

Or i wonder how much they are new...

[gti-si 0]

I have one question to ask, being a mechnical newbie, but how can an idle control valve affect the car when the engine is running and is on throttle ? I don't know how the GTi6 ICV works, but on my FTO the ICV does nothing until the TPS registers its on idle throttle setting.

 

When the one on my 6 became apparent it was dead. It basically didn't move from where it was sat, so it was haemorrhaging air into the manifold. This DOES affect the car throughout the whole rev range obviously. The ICV affects the amount of air allowed to pass by it, not enough and it'll stall when you drop the clutch, too much, like I have, and it tends to sound like the throttle is sticking open

[CaptainK 11]

Dammit! I really am getting fed up with this flippin thing. No money at all left because of the blasted thing, so I try to fix it myself and I've just broken it.

 

Took the ICV out, gave it a good clean and then put it back in this morning. Now it plain flat refuses to idle whatsoever. It'll start and then immediately cut out unless I put my foot on the accelerator. I should have just put up with that tiny "10 seconds" of throttle loss after a mile of driving. Looks like a nice new ICV needed ASAP. As well as probably a new intake pipe as well as that was splitting on the ICV pipe before and now its got worse. *sigh*

 

Apologees if I sound annoyed, but after half a year and a LOT of money you would think this thing would be running perfect and be miles quicker than a lot of things on the road. But alas its not and its starting to get me down.

 

Off to town later to my local GSF or Euro Car Parts for a new ICV as this needs to be fixed ASAP..... wish me luck with getting the thing fixed.

 

 

I've also checked the big grounding connection on the gearbox. The wires are firmly secured and happily doing their thing. With the original "throttle loss" problem described above, if it helps with diagnostics the engine, over 10 seconds, would gradually lose power and thus slow the car down if it was in gear. However, dip the clutch and it'd rev, but put it back in gear and it'd slowly loose revs despite the throttle applied. After about 10 seconds you would hear a faint "bang/clunk" (louder depending on how much throttle was applied at the time it recovered) and then it would be happy again.

[welshpug 1,622]

sounds like its running lean for the period its playing up (the bank/clunk may be a misfire)

 

I'd check the fuel pump feed wiring to and from the fusebox, as well as its earth.

 

a voltage drop at the pump is quite common now and with ageing pumps it doesn't take a lot to get a pressure drop.

[CaptainK 11]

sounds like its running lean for the period its playing up (the bank/clunk may be a misfire)

 

I'd check the fuel pump feed wiring to and from the fusebox, as well as its earth.

 

a voltage drop at the pump is quite common now and with ageing pumps it doesn't take a lot to get a pressure drop.

Thanks, I'll get the garage to check this out. Out of interest though, would a "dodgy" battery also cause a similar problem? I'm not too sure on the battery on the car as its a horrid thing with a leaking cell. I'm going to be replacing it later when I find some money.

[CaptainK 11]

Right, the latest on this:

 

I went out at lunch and fitted a new battery and new ICV. Then drove it to work. It didn't do the mysterious "losing power / cutting out" thing, but then after I had installed the battery and ICV I had left it idling for a while and it had been revved a bit to make sure it was all settled in. I'll try it on the way home tonight and report back tomorrow.

 

Thanks all.

 

(p.s. more money I don't have on the credit card )

[CaptainK 11]

Dammit! Drove the 205 on the way back home today and its now even worse than it was before. Joy!

 

Started up ok on the second attempt and managed to drive about 2 miles and then it pops and misfires and it didn't break out of the "power loss" session that normally lasts only 10 seconds. Lasted for the rest of my journey home - about 10 minutes. Only way I got it home was to drive it above 3000rpm then it would work. But any lower it would cough and splutter and hesitate and generally want to try to cut out. Couldn't let it idle so whenever I had to stop I had to keep my foot on the throttle.

 

Run out of ideas for the blimmin thing now. So its back in the garage tomorrow for them to play with it.

[gti-si 0]

MAP sensor been looked at/changed?

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

MAP sensor been looked at/changed?

 

 

Funny, I was just about to suggest that too! Thing is, its probably something very simple that could be fixed within half an hour but very difficult to diagnose over the net. Remember, try not to get too technical, 99% of faults are something extremely simple. I know Dan rebuilt this car after the initial chaos you had, so everything he did will be spot on. Check all connections to the sensors on the throttle body.

 

Also, try to narrow down exaclty when the fault occurs, is it when you do anything in particular??? I know it sounds daft but these GTi6 conversion really are 100% reliable. They do not go wrong.

 

Maxi

[taylorspug 7]

As i said earlier mate, get the garage to plug in to the diagnostic plug (if they have the right equipment) and see if anything comes up. Slightly annoying as this is probably a problem i could have had fixed in 5 mins flat when the car was with me, but as we both know it was running like a gem when it left the workshop!

[CaptainK 11]

As i said earlier mate, get the garage to plug in to the diagnostic plug (if they have the right equipment) and see if anything comes up. Slightly annoying as this is probably a problem i could have had fixed in 5 mins flat when the car was with me, but as we both know it was running like a gem when it left the workshop!

Yeah, I should point out to our viewers that at my insistance after my first disaster with the original engine install via someone else that Dan kept it for a bit and drive it around prior to me picking it up after the rebuild. This he did (150 miles I think?) and it was running sweet when I picked it up.

 

Its just since then it has deteriorated. And no I haven't been ragging it or anything as I've got a checklist of how it was to be run in and so forth. Dan has been a star on the phone to me every now and then.

 

I've checked all the connectors to the sensors I can get too. Taken them off and blown into them and so forth and resecured them. No joy. The issues is DEFINATELY a hot running problem. The car drives perfectly when first started, but after a mile of driving it with just want to try to cut outand loose power when its in gear. Ditch the clutch, rev it up past 3000rpm and bring up the clutch and its happy again - as long as I keep it above 3000rpm. 2300-3000rpm it'll run but will pop and crackle and occasionally loose power for a moment. Anything under that and the engine will lose power quickly and slow the car like I've just tapped the brakes. Ditch clutch and rev it passed 3000rpm and its happy-ish again.

Whilst it is loosing power, it is misfiring and popping and banging.

 

This "loosing power" period used to last only about 10 seconds, but yesterday and today it just keeps doing it all the time after the 1 mile "cold period". It was supposed to be in the garage today, but they are overrun with other people's cars. So as they are a good bunch I offered to change my day to another day - next tuesday. So I'm in the FTO all the time now.

Edited July 17, 2008 by CaptainK

[CaptainK 11]

MAP sensor been looked at/changed?

Which one is that? The black rectangular shaped box with a 3 pin connector on it on top of the inlet manifold to the left of the throttle body?

 

I'm now truly fed up with my 205. Went out last night and took out the four coils on it. Going from left to right, numbers 1 & 3 had this strange "vanilla coloured" chalk/dust inside the coil tubes. Number 3 was the worst and actually had a solid clump blocking up the tube. This dust had obviously worked down and onto the plugs and I thought could have created a problem with electrical continuity to the plugs. So I cleaned up the plugs and then blew out the crude in the coil tubes and also cleaned it out by prodding tissue up and around them. They looked much better after my efforts.

 

Went to start it, proudly thinking "that must be it!", and low and behold the evil money grabber turns over and over but doesn't start. Try a few more times and it sounds like it wants to start, but keeps popping and banging every now and then (smells very rich and petrolley). Eventually I get it started and it happily idles ok. Let it idle for a bit and give it a few revs and it still runs ok and returns to idle ok.

 

Mmmm... I think maybe thats cleared it? Turn it off for a bit, then go to start it again. Repeat performance above - right pain in the backside to start and more popping and banging. Annoyed I give up and go inside to be greeted with my ever helpful flatmate saying "You car doesn't sound like its running right". "No excrement Sherlock!!!"

 

EDIT: And if anyone has a picture and or location of the Diagnostic Plug for a GTi6 engine that would be appreciated.

Edited July 18, 2008 by CaptainK

[welshpug 1,622]

If its a phase 2 on loom the Diagnostic plug is in the fusebox, i.e not the engine bay loom.

 

if it came from a phase 1 there should be a green 2 pin plug near the ECU plug, which is normally clipped to the ECU box cover.

 

MAP sensor is indeed the one bolted to the manifold to the left of the throttle body as you look at it

Edited July 18, 2008 by welshpug

[CaptainK 11]

Thanks for that WelshPug. I'll have a play over the weekend sometime and try to make it worse than it currently is. (gotta laugh at it, otherwise I will genuinely set fire to it as I've had enough )

Edited July 18, 2008 by CaptainK

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

The diagnostic plug for the 306 is a 16pin item, found under the dashboard within the car. It dosent only deal with the engine within the 306 so if its needed in the 205 it should have been chopped out of the donor and connected up to the relevant wires. I did this in my cabriolet and have one with the relevant wiring ready to solder into my black 205gti6. To be honest ive never seen anyone else put one in their conversion.

 

Maxi

[gti-si 0]

Isn't that only for the later 306's Maxi? K's engine is from an early 1997 so I would of thought it'd have the earlier 2-pin jobbie?

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Isn't that only for the later 306's Maxi? K's engine is from an early 1997 so I would of thought it'd have the earlier 2-pin jobbie?

 

 

I have never dealt with an early loom so I only know for certain on the phase2 stuff, as has been posted the diagnostic plug on the early setup could be a 2pin green thing but I couldnt confirm this, sorry!

 

Maxi

Edited July 19, 2008 by maxi