wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 22, 2008 Hi all, Im having soo much trouble timing up my 205 Hillclimb Pug, i just cannot seem to get the Double Timing Mark on the flywheel to line up with the TDC mark. Backround on the engine: Standard 1900 XU9 Bottom End XU9 Head with 60 thou skim Catcam Rally Cam Baker Verier Pulley Double Valve Springs Twin 45 DCOE Webers H&H Re-Curved Dizzy Helix Alloy Flywheel (Single and Double Marks Traced exactly onto this from the standard flywheel) Magnex 4:1 Mani Ok so i have been told that with the catcam i can run anything from 32 to 36 Deg Timing at TDC and using a Digital Strobe Timing Gun set to 2 deg (thus being that according the Haynes Manual when the Double Mark is lined up with the TDC mark, the timing is then 30 deg Advanced, so if i want 32 deg advance i need to set the timing strobe to 2 deg, is this correct?!?) But doing this i just cannot seem to find the Double Timing mark on the flywheel, all i can ever see is the Single Timing mark, the manual says to rev the car at 3500 rpm to be able to time it to the TDC mark but even doing this there is no Double Timing Mark. I have even followed the manual and set the rpm to 700 and set the timing to the Single Timing Amrk to the BTDC position meaning 6 Deg advance. Then once i have done this, in theory, i should then be abke to rev the car to 3500 rpm and have the Double Mark line perfectly with the TDC position, but nothing again!!!! What is going on...............i really have no more ideas and really hoping ssomeone can help???? This cant be an uncommon set up on a 205, Twin 45's with a Rally cam and a H&H Dizzy so what Timing Advances and procedures have been used to get it set correctly?!?! Oh and i dont have access at all to a Rolling Road as i live on a rock (Guernsey) Thanx in advance guys, really needin some help now and know i can rely on you all Simon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshpug 1,626 Posted June 22, 2008 depends what curve H&H set the distributor to and what RPM it's set to reach that max Advance/Retard, what did H&H specify? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 22, 2008 dont think they told me what to set it to..... would i need to speak to them to find the right setting Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted June 22, 2008 You wont get any info from them regarding adjusting the timing .. i know been asking them myself and i didn't get any reply back .. A car with fast road cam will need more initial advance (quite opposite to the advance curve for the high CR engine with standard cam ..) and if you've told them all your engine specs i doubt that they didn't adjust it properly .. I can't offer any advice regarding adjusting with the strobe light , cos i always do that "by ear" ... and me thinks that it's best that way .. Now i remember you saying that you have track only car with loud exhaust system , but at least you can try to adjust it on the track (without the strobe light , few miles will do for checking if it'll pink in high gear when you fully press the acc. pedal ...) .. on the other hand if you have problem hearing the engine because of too loud exh. system , find/borrow one with all muffers on and fit it temporarily until you adjust the ignition timing (so that you can hear when the engine starts pinking ..) Rgs ! Damir (oh , and plug off the vacuum advance ...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 22, 2008 ok so wont bother contactin them, thanx mate its just very hard for me to adjust on the track as we dont have a track over here, its purely Hillclimb and Sprint events and not road worthy to do it your way Damir, my only choice is to get the car road worthy and registered so i can then drive on the public roads and set it as i go, it doesnt seem like im gonna get very far with how to set it up with the strobe light which i thought would have been the more accurate im just gettin so frustrated that this is such a hard job to set the ignition timing which when working with such old engines must have been done milllions of times with every specification possible ill just have to get the car on the roads and take it from there will the timing be set right when u can apsolutely no pinking at all or just a little, its just i tried this method with a mates car and i could never seem to completely get rid of the pinkin, whats best to hear for in what gear etc?!?! thanx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted June 22, 2008 (edited) Do you have license plates on this car ? thing is , you really don't need to drive far away to adjust this so few attempts down the road and back from here you live will be enough .. or do you have any low traffic roads near your local for quick test/adjusting trip (if nothing , at least at night ..) on which you're sure that you won't get spotted by cops ? if you can find any up hill road near the better , cos you'll be able to set it up quicker driving on slightly up hill road .. You need to adjust it so that you can't hear no pinking at all , not even a little bit ! you're probably advancing the dizzy on your mates car way too much at a time .. first you need to mark the initial spot on the dizzy on which the car doesn't pink under load and then proceed with advancing from this point/mark bit by bit with test drive in between the each settings , do not advance from the initial spot/mark more then 3mm at a time ... start with 2mm from the initial spot/mark and then go for a test drive , stick it in 4-th or 5-th and fully press the acc pedal in one of these gears when the engine is at around 2000-2500rmp .. if you can't hear it pinking stop , mark this position on the dizzy and advance 2mm more , test drive again as described .. and do that marking/advancing/testing under load until you reach up to the point when the engine starts pinking very slightly under load , stop and highlight this position on the dizzy (erase all the other previous test adjusting marks on the dizzy) and retard from this point roughly 2 maxi 3mm back ... and again go for a spin and make sure that you can't hear pinking no more (as said not even a little bit !) But be prepared to use same grade of petrol , always , after you adjust the timing this way . Try searching if you need more info regarding this "by ear" ignition timing adjusting Rgs ! Damir Edited June 22, 2008 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 22, 2008 ok thanx Damir, i can try and speak to a couple of companies and see if i can use a car park or i mite even be able to get onto our Karting track for a price, this definitely seems to be the only way i can set this perfectly and it definitely needs to be done asap as i could be damaging the engine trough incorrect set up!! once this is set up i can then start trying different settings with the carbs to try and get a little more power, do you have much eperience with Twin 45 Webers on a 205?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted June 22, 2008 once this is set up i can then start trying different settings with the carbs to try and get a little more power, do you have much eperience with Twin 45 Webers on a 205?! No , sorry but i can strongly recommend Mr. Guy Croft regarding the carb setup : http://www.guy-croft.com/index.php If you don't want to bother with joining on the website , you can contact him directly via e-mail .. you'll find him very kind , helpful , and quick post reply with superb backup ! (if you wish you can write my name/nick in the post saying that i've recommend him to you for assistance regarding carb setup) Best luck ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted June 22, 2008 ... Meanwhile , see if you can find something useful here : http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber1.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber2.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber3.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber4.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber5.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber6.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber7.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...nt=TUWeber8.jpg But this is for 205 Rally carbs .. mostly just idle and mixture adjusting , for jetting you really need advice from someone who knows this stuff .. Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 22, 2008 thanx mate, definitely taken some good info on setting the floats and also adjusting the Idle Mixture Screws correctly im going to try temporarily fitting a large sebring rear silencer to the pug so i can try and set it up while standing still by revving and then letting the rev die down then while at the lowest rpm hit the throttle again to here any pinking, at least this will give me a starting point yeh?! what you reckon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackherer 543 Posted June 22, 2008 It needs to be under load to provoke pinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 22, 2008 ok so ill have to work on gettin it on the roads, ive got my next hillclimb on the 9th August so ive got month and half to get it sorted, would be great to get it on the roads and set it up it doesnt seem to run cleanly and smoothly under 2500 rpm, seems to foul and bog down when you first dab the throttle so when on the line i need to give it a few revs to clear engine and carbs, is this just as a result of the rally catcam or because of the carbs settings?!? i hear other engines around the pits also running carbs and they rev and drive like a normal every day car at low rpm and also have the full power and noise of proper carbs, how come mine isnt like this at all, seems too rich to be honest but not sure, what u think!!?? thanx guys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 327 Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) The thing with carbs is like with the ignition timing , you have an modified engine so you need to match ignition and fueling system with your engine specs , in order to tune the engine for the both power and reliability .. if not done properly you could damage or even blow up the engine (it doesn't have to happen quickly , but i will sooner or later ..) Just like you need different ignition advance curve for modified engine you also need to correct the fueling .. Forget about the mixture and idle setting , first you need to select correct size of carb chokes and jets , and again like in the case of ignition mods you need to match these parts according to your engine specs cos you'll hardly buy new carbs which will have correct size of chokes and jets to suit all your engine specs .. they wont , and when you source and fit these parts then you can proceed with the final tune up . Speak with Mr. Guy as recommended , write him an e-mail with all your engine specs (when i say all i really mean all !) and he'll tell you precisely what you need to buy . Regards ! Damir Edited June 23, 2008 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 23, 2008 thats great mate, ive sent him a general email first so i will send a follow up email with my full specs later will let you know how i get on with the car on the roads and any response from Guy thanx again mate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinner2k3 3 Posted June 26, 2008 Interesting you have struggled to get info out of H&H. I emailed to ask if my 1.9 being converted to carbs would benefit and they basically replied fairly quickly with "yes, that will be £35" but when I asked for more info as to why/how they went quiet. Regarding your car bogging down is sounds like a carb set up issue. I would start with the Idle jets as they would govern how smooth the progression is between idle and main circuit. You may need the next size down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted June 27, 2008 thanx for the info mate, im speaking to Guy Croft at the moment so hopefully he can come up with a set up which will suit my engine, i will post the set up he recomends and hopefully it'll be some help to others Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted June 27, 2008 It needs to be under load to provoke pinking. Gently trying to pull away with the handbrake on should be provocation enough! - and the car doesn't have to move. General rule of thumb we used to use with minis is quite effective, too advance the dizzy slowly until you get the fastest tickover, very slowly retard it from here until the revs first drop then retard by a further 3 deg "ish" gives an excellent starting point for setting the timing generally Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
