White Smoke When Warm

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

Just a quick question.. sometimes when ive been driving for a while then leave it to idle, white smoke will come from the exhaust; just like early morning start-up. I assume this shouldn't happen as the engine is well up to operating temperature ie. water/oil temp as it should be. The fans are always warm and a recent compression test showed even results ( between 147 - 162 odd.) It's not overheating or anything, and pulls well.

 

White smoke dosen't appear all the time, its intermittent. I just think as the exhaust is red hot at this point, there shouldn't be any white smoke? Or can there be another reason for this?

 

However it ocassionally misfires and has trouble idling when up to operating temp. recently.

 

Whats going on? Rob

[DamirGTI 327]

Hi !

 

Cracked cylinder liner perhaps did you check the coolant level ? fill the exp. bottle up to the maxi mark and observe the level for a few days ... also check the spark plugs - remove them first from stone cold engine (after the car was left standing for 24h) and see if one of them is wet and has an sweet smell/odor (antifreeze) ...

 

Damir

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

Thanks Damir yer i'll try that tomorrow. How serious is a cracked liner? could i get away with it for any amount of time? (its a 1.6 8v)

Soon after i bought the car i checked the oil, there was hardly any in there! The water was also very low so i put 2-odd litres in (!) and on starting the warm engine white smoke literally gushed out the back for 5 mins!

 

I guess the crack would get bigger over time like a head gasket gets worse over time.. Would a cracked liner have an effect on performance? I cant compare to any other Gti as its my first, but some days it pulls harder than others. Sometimes the throttle dosen't snap open as it should and it seems sluggish and flat through the rev range.

 

Would a leak-down test confirm a cracked liner? How does this test work?

 

Thanks Rob

[steve@cornwall 100]

Check the condition of the inlet manifold gasket - there are redundant waterways in the head hat are blanked by the gasket in the injection head. It's not unknown for these to leak into the ports. I favour instant gasket as a manifold gasket as it can be used to first form a plug in these waterways and will deal with any corrosion around them which is often present. Also non-injection gaskets are often fitted in error- obvious when exposed as they don't have the peaked cu out fot the injector.

[DamirGTI 327]

Hi !

 

Well it'll hod up for some time if it's just slightly cracked certainly longer then blown head gasket cos the thing is (at least from my experience) - when the engine cools down the gap opens and thus allowing the coolant to leak from the block/water jacket past the liner crack inside the combustion chamber , and when the engine warms up fully to the operating temp. the heat seals the gap (metal expands) and then the leak stops .. i did have some similar symptoms as you described however the engine was running fine - strong powerful with just very slight misfire a bit rough/bad idle and mystery coolant loose (not too much but noticeable ..) , apart from this everything was fine ...

Anyway compression test didn't reveal this cylinder liner problem , eventually i was starting to suspect the liner problem when i saw a coolant puddle on the bottom of the cylinder (by looking inside the cylinder ((on stone cold engine !)) with an flashlight trough the spark plug hole) , and also the spark plug from this same cylinder was always a little bit wet (with sweet smell on the spark plug tip and also from the spark plug hole/cylinder -> antifreeze) and was different colored when compared with the spark plugs from other cylinders which where nice dry and coffee/tan color .. when i did this same test on hot engine all spark plugs (including that suspected one) where dry and there was no more leak inside this cylinder ..

 

I've been driving this engine with cracked liner for say around 3 months (in the summer time when it's really hot over here !) , and after that 3 months one day it started to pink/detonate and misfire really badly so I've strip the engine/removed the head and then saw this which did confirm my previous diagnose :

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...&hl=cracked

 

You can read more here if you're interested in this (this was in the beginning ) :

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...&hl=coolant

 

 

As said you can check this when the engine cools down completely (24h or the next day/in the morning is the best time for this test !) , remove all the spark plugs out - check if any of them is wet , if ti smells sweet on antifreeze/coolant also check the coloration and compare with others .. then take the socket/spanner and turn the engine with hand on the crank pulley bolt and bring the piston (one by one , start from 1 cylinder and proceed further to the 4-th ..) down to BDC (bottom dead center) or near the BDC , take the flashlight (find some small thin shape flashlight for this job) turn the light and point it trough the spark plug hole down inside the cylinder and you'll be able to see the piston crown and liner surface around it - if the piston crown is wet and if you see liquid in between the piston and liner surface it is either cracked liner , or hairline crack somewhere inside the head or the head gasket fire rings are starting to leak (the early stage of head gasket problem)

Also for the better view of the piston crown turn the engine further on and bring the piston up to the top to the TDC (top dead center) and then do the same with the flashlight , and you'll see if the piston crown is wet or if it has different coloration (kind of white/shiny pigment or/and black spots with the sweet odor coming out from that cylinder/spark plug hole)

 

Now i won't say that it's the cracked liner it could be something else also like this what Steve has said .. check inside and around the engine and you'll find something , or drive it until it gets worse then afterwards it'll be easier to find the problem ..

 

Regards !

Damir

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

Thanks steve@cornwall, ill dismount the inlet manifold and take a look.

 

How is a leak-down test performed? would this show up any problems and costs etc. Also would a water pressure test confirm a blown gasket/cracked liner.

 

If so i would consider an engine swap to 1.6/1.9. Is there anybody near Brighton who could help me with a swap?

 

Thanks Rob

[Grim.Badger 15]

Are you absolutely sure it's white? My last engine burnt a little bit of oil and produced such small amounts of smoke that you couldn't really tell the colour; it seemed more white than blue until the rings really let go. Your compression levels seem a little low (not too low though ), what effect does adding oil to the cylinders have? What does the exhaust smell like?

 

If it is white then I would check the above, but if you find nothing obvious then drive it until it gets worse, but keep an eye on both your oil condition and coolant level. When you take the inlet manifold off make sure all the old gasket is off and the faces are clean before refitting; I use a wallpaper scraper, then WD40, then emery paper then WD40 again and then clean up with a cotton cloth and refit using a genuine Pug gasket (no real price difference to after market and much higher quality).

 

Every car I've driven has good and bad days so I wouldn't worry about that, especially with such a basic engine management system. If you do decide to replace the engine stick with the 1.6 engines unless you do a lot of motorway driving.

[applemobile 0]

you say it doesnt hapen all the time? you sure its not just water in the exhaust system, condensation? my car white smokes terriably sometimes, i choose to ignore it and put it down to condensation

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

Thanks for your help, took it for a drive last night.. its well down on power when it's warm pulls like my old 1.3 polo!

 

I think some water is getting into one of the chambers somehow, or it's overfuelling. I bought it about 7 weeks ago, the guy wanted £375 or £575 with a new m.o.t., i agreed to the latter. Said he was a mechanic so he might have known about this and sold it on quickly?

 

oh well the shell/suspension is good enough for an engine swap, i just don't want to fork out for a garage to strip the engine. If it's something like the inlet manifold/overfuelling i could sort that, but all my repairs i do at the roadside so attempting to take the head off is beyond my experience.. If i had my own garage i would attempt this; i would like to learn more!

 

If a cracked liner/head gasket was quoted, i would consider an engine swap as i dont have a lot of money tbh, and i don't want to sell/break the car. Is there anyone within 100 miles of Brighton who could help me with an engine swap (of course paid)? Or even help me diagnose whats going on?

 

Thanks Rob

[DamirGTI 327]

Hi !

 

One friendly advice - don't trust car mechanics

 

Whatever you do don't bother with garages as they usually do a s**t of a job and rip you off , as you said if you don't have enough experience to make a correct diagnose of this problem and fix or swap the engine , theres plenty people over here who knows this cars from top to the bottom , so I'm sure that someone near you can/will help you out with this

 

Rgs !

Damir

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

Theres a couple of garages back where i used to live that i know will do a good job, but they (rightly so) charge a lot and are 125 miles away.

 

Having worked in garages before, i know some mechanics like to test-drive customer's cars and thrash them while they're at it I'm all for doing it myself with some help, so i can learn and save money! Also, i know it'll be a good job with due care and attention.

 

Will a 1.6 lump fit into a 205 boot?

 

Rob

[DamirGTI 327]

Yes i know , I've been working at car mechanic garages since i was 17 and I've seen hear and fell a lot of things , so customer's car testing/trashing was , well , just the usual ritual especially if it was some rare fancy car brand/type , anyway myself and my boss we where a good ghosts of the car mechanic garages we didn't do that just the short test drive to make sure that the repair was successful as you really must try the car before the customer comes to pick it up ... but surly not to race the car from cold on a motorway 200mph like a maniac or use it to make your weekend shopping or drive at home with it after the job (some of the boys/employees did do this until they where spotted driving around the town in someone else's/customer's car , and they get a kick in the a**e straight away next morning as per warning not to do that again , anymore .. )

 

Anyway , why not to try and fix this engine by yourself ? removing the head isn't so hard job (if that is the problem..) if you're careful have the necessary tools and a bit of knowledge even if you do not you can always seek assistance/advice here on the forum if you get stuck with something , also the Haynes "joke" book is useful enough for engine overhaul/cylinder head removing/refitting jobs ..

But before you decide to do anything it's essential job to make an correct diagnose of the problem (now for this you need to have a little bit more experience and some engine testing tools ..) so that you know what you need to do/repair ... my advice is that you go to some known good (trusty) car mechanic garage and just ask them to detect/establish the engine state/diagnose so that you know what you need to do/repair and do that afterwards by yourself

 

As for the engine swap , yes you can fit 1.6 engine inside your car .

 

Regards !

Damir

Edited March 6, 2008 by DamirGTI

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

One thing i forgot to mention which has been present since i bought the car..

 

It starts better on cold mornings though dosen't catch straightaway.. When the day is warm/average it takes a fair 15-20 cranks to start and some throttle too.. It splutters into life, not a direct, strong start as it should be. I know this isn't normal, could it be linked to what iv'e described?

 

I'm hoping its a fuelling/ignition problem all along and a part just needs to be replaced.

 

Thanks for all your input, Rob

[DamirGTI 327]

Hi !

 

Yes , could be the fueling if it's hard to start when warm like leaky injectors , AFM incorrectly adjusted , or ECU temp. sensor ..

But then the white exh. smoke doesn't make sense it'll be black or dark gray if it's fueling problem (too rich mixture , worn ECU temp. sensor etc.)

 

Anyway you can try to change the ECU temp. sensor (it's beneath the dizzy , sensor with the blue connector/plug) as it's cheap (but buy him at ordinary car part store cos Peugeot charge 20.00 quid for this sensor ) and easy to replace ..

also you can remove the injectors and get them flow/leak tested and cleaned if needed on the ultrasonic machine .. for AFM adjusting you'll ideally need a rolling road session (however it's possible to adjust him "roughly" on a DIY basis)

 

Rgs !

Damir

Edited March 9, 2008 by DamirGTI

[large 33]

Just change the H.G. it's not that big of a job. If you do change it you may as well do the timming belt and water pump at the same time the hole lot should come in under £100 and should take about 4 hours but if its your first one give yourself a full day.

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

Yeah i could just change the gasket, been reading the haynes book about it.. don't wanna be stuck with a car with no head in a suburb (free parking) if i run into difficulties Does the head need to be skimmed every time it's renewed though?

 

Would a steel gasket eliminate all the problems accociated with blown/cracked gaskets for the future?

 

Thing is i'm considering just swapping the engine because it's only got between 145 - 162 odd psi over the cylinders which iv'e heard is pretty low.. Can low psi rating have a significant effect on power output? I know 8v engines are relativley cheap to get hold of 1.6 or 1.9, and i think ive found some contacts who could help me swap it.. This just seems like an easier straightforward option than messing about with an already knakkered engine..

 

Would anyone recommend upgrading(?) to a 1.9 8v? Iv'e heard mixed opinions on this, it would be sweet to have that extra torque on demand I've read a lot of 1.9 8vs are shot though..

 

Maybe ill try replacing the ecu temp. sensor to start with.

 

Anyway I took it for a drive yesterday for about an hour. Surprisingly it started first catch after leaving it for a couple of days and it idled well, normal white smoke (condensation) accompanied by water droplets from the tail pipe. Let it idle for 5 mins, drove it 4mins to the petrol station, switched off and filled up. Started again 1st time with no more white smoke. Temp. guage just over a third.

Took it for a spin around town in traffic etc. and after 30 mins white smoke (though possibly with a tinge of blue) appeared again, just stood in traffic. Still idling well..

Then took it for a rag up the coastal road toward Eastbourne, pulled reasonably well up to the redline with most acceleration force felt between 5-6000 rpm. I don't usually take it this high but seemed to perform ok..

Drove it around a bit more, no white smoke BUT..

After standing in traffic for a bit the idle dropped and began to hunt between 700-1000 rpm, as i pulled away it misfired and stalled . .

A few yards down the road it had serious misfires and switched between firing on 3/4 cylinders and pulled like a 1.3..

Then the misfiring stopped and it ran, though was WELL down on power like a 1.2/1.3. I could hardly keep up with cars in front!

 

This has happened to me once before, it seems after an hour's worth of driving this misfire happens. Then it levels out and just plods along like a 1.2 but sounds ok. Oil pressure/temp. shows fine and it dosen't overheat.

 

I really cant afford to throw good money after bad and an engine transplant stands out as the easiest and cheapest option.. What do you guys think?

 

Thanks for all the replies btw.

 

Rob

[large 33]

I know how you feel. I had a 1.6 with a cracked block I was lucky in that i had a spare 1.9 witch i thought was good the next weekend I was changing the engine again I had managed to get 2x 1.9's for £80 now i wish i had a 1.6 again, if out and out speed is what you are after go to a 1.9 if you want FUN keep to a 1.6 after all 100mph down a single track road is fast enough. Donn't forget if you do swap the engine to replace the timming belt and water pump and I would be half tempted to replace the h.g. as well unless you know 100% the engine is good.

[Guest shiftyshuffle]

A lot of people seem to think the 1.6 is more of a hoot, is this because it's more responsive? Do you still get the progressive power band and on-cam pull in a 1.9, and does it keep on pulling till 6000rpm like the 1.6?

 

I went for another long drive today, same story. Loads of torque and acceleration for first 20mins, then gradually loses power and stays that way.. No misfires today though.

[steve@cornwall 100]

A lot of people seem to think the 1.6 is more of a hoot, is this because it's more responsive? Do you still get the progressive power band and on-cam pull in a 1.9, and does it keep on pulling till 6000rpm like the 1.6?

 

I went for another long drive today, same story. Loads of torque and acceleration for first 20mins, then gradually loses power and stays that way.. No misfires today though.

 

The 1.9 pulls to 6000 - the 1.6 should be good for 7000+ The 1.6 pulls from around 4K -7K whereas the 1.9 pulls from the beginning, you lose that surge as you hit 4K. If kept above 4K (It seems very harsh when first driving at these revs - but the 1.6 engine thrives on it) I reckon it's pretty even with the 1.9 for performance. Now that the 1.9 is not particularly fast compared to modern cars, I don't see why they command more money than a 1.6.

Edited March 9, 2008 by steve@cornwall

[Grim.Badger 15]

Could you stick up a picture of your spark plugs? Sounds like you have an ignition/fueling problem which is likely to be the cause of the low power.

My experiance of plugs in a good 1.9 engine is that they should have a light powdering of a buff/light brown deposit with a clean looking (not overl; yellowed) electrode.