4 Wheel Alignment

[Furiousd 0]

After having my new steering rack fitted I took my car for tracking, the place I've been before couldn't do it as they said the rear wheels were too close to the arches as its been lowered about 40mm.

 

They booked it in somewhere else locally who said they could do it. I didn't bother getting a price as I assumend wrongly that it would be similar to 15 - 20 quid ish. The bill was nearly 60 quid which I was told was a discounted price as it had come from the other place.

 

Apparently the 4 wheel alignment they did is totally different to tracking for a whole bunch of reason i don't really understand. I've attached a copy of the print out.

 

Did this really need doing? or have I been ripped off?

 

I'm also peeved because they've set the steering wheel off slightly to the left. I asume i'm within my rights to have this corrected after shelling out?!

Scann001.PDF

[GLPoomobile 958]

I think you've been had by yet another garage that has tens of thousands worth of tracking equipment and an untrained monkey operating it.

 

The steering wheel can be easily set back central, but the chances are they've only adjusted one track rod end (lazy) to set up the front track. Wrong!! Something to do with the Ackerman effect (SP?) - not something I understand but I know it's not good when you have delicate and feelsome steering like on a 205.

 

I had this argument with a garage once when they adjusted my tracking and I found one TRE was about 2cm further out than the other. The guy took me under a car (is that even legal in our H&S obsessed society?) and explained 4 wheel allignment and how this wasn't a problem. Since he blinded me with technical jargon that I didn't understand we agreed to disagree. I know I was right and he was just repeating stuff that head been drummed in to him that he didn't understand either

 

Sorry, I'm ranting a bit cos this is one of those things that really winds me up. It's not an issue on average cars that have no steering feel, but on a 205 it's so important to get it right.

[Jrod 7]

Get that done down here for about £25. Steering wheel should of been set central

[jackherer 543]

I'm afraid your rear beam appears to be totally knackered

[Jrod 7]

I saw he had some neg camber going but its not even a degree?

[Anthony 1,000]

Something looks very odd there - figures are all over the place between left and right sides of the car, both front and back.

 

Either the guy doesn't know how to use the equipment properly (which sounds distinctly possible if the steering wheel isn't straight) or your car has been in a smack at some point judging by the camber/caster being out by so much across the two front wheels.... 1 degree of camber should be easily noticeable by the naked eye IMO, and that sort of difference between sides would make it handle oddly too.

 

As for the beam, assuming the figures are correct it sounds like the OSR has a fractionally bent stub axle if anything - the camber/toe for the NSR sounds about right if you're using 205/309 arms. If the beam had failed in the usual manner with collapsed bearings, there'd be excessive negative camber.

 

Price wise, 4-wheel alignment is usually £25 ish around here, although I never bother and instead get my tracking done by someone with a pair of Dunlop gauges who actually knows what he's doing...

[Furiousd 0]

Something looks very odd there - figures are all over the place between left and right sides of the car, both front and back.

 

So I can take this up with them, would it be possible to advise what they should be?

 

Full story is steering rack was shot and car handled appallingly, new rack fitted it was pretty much ok. I had tracking done as a matter of course and they obviously made a mess of it (Steering wheel was at about 45d degree's car was all over the road etc.) so I took it back and they gave me a refund and booked me in with this 4 wheel alignment place. Car drives pretty well now (Only driven it back and to work but seems ok) my only beef is that the wheel is not centered properly and the price!

 

I was concered about the camber as well but the wheels (visually) are straight and theres no sign of it being seized or making any noises. Is less than half a degree of neg camber too much to worry about?

 

Pretty sure I got ripped off but as I forgot to get a price I was stuck. I can take it on the chin but I would like to be sure its been done right. I've got a receipt and they're local to work so I've no problem about taking it back to make them do it correctly.

[Jrod 7]

I'd be more concerned about the front camber/ caster.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Jrod

[Anthony 1,000]

So I can take this up with them, would it be possible to advise what they should be?

There's not much they can do about it really - the only thing that is adjustable to them is the front toe. Everything else (front camber/caster, rear camber/toe) are all fixed on 205's.

 

I can't remember the exact figures off the top of my head and don't have Autodata on my work PC. The rear should be 0.5 degree camber and run a little toe-in (0.3 sounds in the right ballpark), but the front I can't remember - with 205 wishbones there should hardly be any camber (0.2 degree or so would be about right I'd guess) and I've no idea about caster, other than it should be equal on both sides.

 

I was concered about the camber as well but the wheels (visually) are straight and theres no sign of it being seized or making any noises. Is less than half a degree of neg camber too much to worry about?

Well, it's not ideal having different camber/toe on the back and it will affect handling, as Jackherer on here recently discovered when he found that he had one early and one later 309 arm on the back which have differing geometries and found the car was much more keen to turn in one way compared to the other.

 

I'd be more concerned about the front camber/ caster.

Agreed - the differences there are more of a concern than the difference at the back, and certainly if the figures are correct must be affecting the handling noticeably. Does the car seem to turn easier/better one way compared to the other, or have a tendancy to pull/drift to one side if you let go of the steering wheel?

 

I've got a receipt and they're local to work so I've no problem about taking it back to make them do it correctly.

Well, there's no excuse for the wheel being off-center on a freshly tracked car. Check that you've properly centered the rack by counting the number of turns each way (should be identical) and if that's correct, it must be that they've adjusted the TRE's unequally. If the rack isn't centered (ie turns different left-right) then remove the wheel and put it correctly.

[Furiousd 0]

Many thanks Anthony/Jrod for the diagnosis and benefit of your knowledge. I'd have hoped maybe the garage would have pointed some of this out to me, but hey ho

 

I've had the 205 over 12 months now and it handled great when I 1st got it. I can't remember having a crash so is it possible these readings are due to the new (to me) steering rack? I was told it was a 'known good' one but it wasn't new or reconditioned.

 

Cheers guys

[Anthony 1,000]

I've had the 205 over 12 months now and it handled great when I 1st got it. I can't remember having a crash so is it possible these readings are due to the new (to me) steering rack? I was told it was a 'known good' one but it wasn't new or reconditioned.

No - camber and caster are set by other componants, any of which could cause the camber/caster to be wrong... bent strut, bent/incorrect wishbone, bent subframe, ovalled hub, shell with "Friday afternoon tolerances" or accident damage... list goes on.

 

Steering rack only really directly relates to toe.

[Furiousd 0]

No - camber and caster are set by other componants, any of which could cause the camber/caster to be wrong... bent strut, bent/incorrect wishbone, bent subframe, ovalled hub, shell with "Friday afternoon tolerances" or accident damage... list goes on.

 

Steering rack only really directly relates to toe.

 

OK thanks, I assume then either the gauge is reading wrong or I am unable to tell the difference between a straight car and a cut and shut probably the later

 

I'll still get them to straighten the steering wheels tho'.

 

thanks again!

[Beastie 1]

Well, there's no excuse for the wheel being off-center on a freshly tracked car. Check that you've properly centered the rack by counting the number of turns each way (should be identical) and if that's correct, it must be that they've adjusted the TRE's unequally. If the rack isn't centered (ie turns different left-right) then remove the wheel and put it correctly.

 

Actually there is a very good excuse for that in some cases: If the car had been brought in with steering tie rods of unequal length and the steering wheel centred then correcting the tie rod lengths will cause the steering wheel no longer to be centred. In such circumstances the workshop should of course ask the customer how to proceed and if the customer agrees to the extra labour the steering wheel should then be centred.

 

Since the measurements do not include any figure for toe on turns then there is no way of being sure that the tie rods are now correct lengths. If these measurements are correct then there is some distortion of body shell or steering / suspension components and perfect ackermann will no longer be possible. It is also very likely that the nearest correct ackermann setting will no longer be acheived by setting the steering tie rods at equal lengths. Equal steering tie rods are only geometrically correct for true body shells. A properly used 4 wheel tracking system will indicate that the tie rods *should* be set unequally when the shell is out of line - however the operator should make it very clear to the owner that this is the case.

[base-1 17]

Beaten to it! (unequal length due to one or both bent)

Edited March 4, 2008 by base-1

[yeti-dj 7]

Makes me remember when i got the local Kwik Fit to 4 wheel align my 205 and was quoted £25, had only fitted new track rod arms and wanted it set up properly. When i went back in the guy who served me told me the bill was £45 and this was due to the rear wheels being badly out of alignment and it took a while to sort the problem!!! Knowing fine well they couldnt have done anything to the rear wheels i asked how they corrected the problem the guy told me he didnt know and the mechanic who worked on the car was away for lunch. I then asked to speak to the manager and asked him to explain what they had done to my car, asked him to put the car back on the ramp and show me what they could have adjusted on the rear of the car, i was really p*ssed off by this point, once he had a look at the car he then decided that there must have been some confussion with my bill and agreed to do the work for £25.

 

I should have know better going to Kwik Fit but needed it done that day, chancing, robbing b*stards!!! to many idiots that have no idea how to use expensive equipment.

 

rant over.....

[Furiousd 0]

Update

 

I returned the car to have the steering wheel centered. this lunchtime and it's still not right

 

The steering wheel is still off to the left, and the steering still doesn't feel right

 

Any idea's where I can go with this? I'm starting to feel that there is something wrong with the front left wheel which is causing the problems with the steering wheel alignment? I whatched the lad do the tracking, we agreed on a straight position for the 'wheel. He made the necessary adjustments to toe. when he'd finished the steering wheel hadn't moved but as I drove away and straigtened up it was obviously still not right.

 

Here's a scan of the new printout. Can anyone offer any advice on the best course of action?

 

Thanks

Chris

Scann001.PDF

[welshpug 1,622]

looking at those I'd check the wishbone bushes and top mounts, there seems to be more camber on the N/S/F now than previously.

[McDude 33]

First up - on price I paid £30 for a similar check and adjust. I got it done because I wanted to check that my rear beam wasn't bent.

 

As everyone else has said, the only thing that they can adjust is the tracking and that should be 0 deg 10 min toe in as they have set it.

 

As WelshPug said, you now have a half degree more neg camber at the NSF between the two days of measurements, you also have a degree more of caster on that side - top mounts or bushes?

[Furiousd 0]

Just picking this up from earlier this month.

 

I am going to be fitting new front suspension as one of the dampers is leaking, I want to change the top mounts as suggested whilst i'm at it and will be replacing the drop links as well as the bushes on one side have a fair bit of play. The wishbone bushes look ok to me but I will do these next if the steering still doesn't feel right.

 

My question(s) is(are) really, will I be ok just replacing the top mount rubbers? I know BBM do these but as I see euro car parts also do a 'FRONT STRUT BEARING KIT' Can anyone tell me what this 'kit' will comprise of? and whether it's likely to be a pair or just for one side?

 

Am I better off replacing all the top mount components or just the rubbers? And where's best to buy these Items?

 

I also can't find anywhere online that stock the droplinks, can you point me in the best direction please?

 

Thanks

Chris