How Do My Liners Look?

[smokey 0]

Hiya guys

 

Seems like this engine is still giving me problems. Today its the liners.

 

2 of them had a fair bit of surface rust and 2 look ok and you can still see hone marks.

 

Here are some pictures:

 

Liner 1

 

Liner 2

 

Liner 3

 

Liner 4

 

I'm a little annoyed as i've just spent £350 on every other consumable part to recon this engine and this was one bit i thought i might be ok with, but i'm not sure.

What do you think? Could i get these honed or is it time to either get new or some decent 2nd hand liners and new piston rings?

 

Liner 1 and 4 have a "pickled" effect on them?!

 

Thanks

[j_turnell 134 3 Cars]

Can you feel a lip at the top of the liner, i cant see any vertical scoring, they may be fine and just need a hone.

[smokey 0]

Can you feel a lip at the top of the liner, i cant see any vertical scoring, they may be fine and just need a hone.

 

Liner 1 and 4 have a small lip at the top, seem to feel more of a lip on one side more than the other on both liner 1 and 4.

 

Liner 2 and 3 i can hardly feel anything.

[welshpug 1,627]

looks like its been sat for a loooong time that, give them a light hone and see if the marks come off and the liners are still within spec.

[smokey 0]

looks like its been sat for a loooong time that, give them a light hone and see if the marks come off and the liners are still within spec.

 

Yeah i think it had been. Trouble was when i picked the engine up didn't really know what to look for. This last 2 weeks has been a huge learning curve.

 

Think i might take them out and send them to QEP to get them done?

 

Unless someone knows somewhere near Wiltshire that can do this type of work?

 

Also Welshpug, when you say the marks do you mean the picked effect?

Edited March 1, 2008 by smokey

[uncle buck 0]

I take it that you are going to remove the liners from the block & give the pistons a good clean around the ring lands etc.....Give the bores a rub over with 800 or 1000 grit wet & dry with oil as a lubricant.....then see what they look like. If 2 of them still have the hone marks on the other 2 can't be that much more worn I wouldn't have thought.

 

 

Just so you know what to expect....

 

I disturbed the liners on a 1.4 TU engine a while ago whilst doing the head gasket....so I had no option other than to remove them & replace the seals....the seals cost £5.08 each from the dealers for the most flimsy O ring seals I have ever seen...the cardboard they came on would have cost more to make....I kid you not.

I'm not sure if they will be the same price for your engine....but don't assume they will be a few pence each!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

They look beyond hone'ing to me as you can see the lip at the top, You might be lucky and it will come out but I find more often than not these day's it's the 'not' I'm afraid, With the rust on the cam's water has got in somewhere.

 

Also worth checking to see if there's play in the head bolt threads by cleaning them out with the old one's as these quite often strip when torquing up the head

[uncle buck 0]

Not having a go at anyone here but....

 

The problem with forums is that there is always someone that will tell you that you are doing the wrong thing & that they would advise that you renew / replace the part...in fairness it is very hard to tell the extent of the ware / damage from a few photos.

 

Personally I always go with what I know when stripping & building an engine...I know that you shouldn’t be to eager to skim a head for the sake of it...or because the 19 year old dealership mechanic tells you that is what they do...If the head is straight & flat how is skimming it going to make it any better!

 

The same goes for re-grinding cranks or re-profiling cams !...avoid it at all costs...The crank that you measured a fraction under spec could come back a lot worse !....believe me I have seen it.

I have also seen some of the engineering shops that set about grinding cranks & re-boring blocks, etc.... personally, I wouldn’t let most of them sharpen my pencil !

 

I have also seen some “Back street Engineering” that would make your eyebrows curl...but 99.9% of it has worked & the engine has run sweet as a nut !

 

In contrast...I’ve removed the big end caps on new engines that have covered less than 6,000 miles & found the shells to be knackered....if it was someone on here showing you a picture you would have guessed that the engine had been to the Moon & back & the general advice would be to strip the engine & rebuild it....but the same engine with the same shells has went on to cover a 100,000 plus with no problems....believe me most of you will be running an engine in the same state quite happily without knowing it !

 

Don’t be to eager to replace parts with new / second hand bits if you can help it....an engine after all is just a mechanical thing & it doesn’t have to be 100% perfect to work!

 

Engines, in my experience, aren't an exact science no matter what the experts tell you !

 

 

 

Regards to all.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I agree with you to a certain extent UB, BUT, whilst there are some internet mechanics here (including me), even my experience (knowledge) is growing daily and I see photos here that I recognise straight away as meaning something.

 

Therefore if someone asks for an opinion here - and that's all it is and they know that when they ask - and someone who's seen the same thing in the photo before is good enough to take the time and reply (just has Miles has done) then the person with the query and the whole forum benefits.

 

Even I could see something odd about those liners as they are not uniform. My liners where somehow mint when I first saw them on my original alloy Mi engine (supposedly) with 130k on it, with no rust at all or unusual marks or lips and the honing was still clear as day. And that was the first time I'd ever seen the inards of an Mi engine.

 

It has to be said here that something isn't right and water IS getting in. What our man decides to do about it now he has a few opinions is up to him. But surely he's better off now he's asked?

[smokey 0]

Hiya Guys

 

Thanks for all the replys. It is helping to hear everyones thoughts.

 

To help clear things up. This engine has had the head off for quite some time and the engine has been left in a garage. Which is probably why this rust got there in the 1st place. Also the rocker cover was not on which is probably why the tops of the cams had a small part of rust on. I'm going over the rest of the engine to see if there is any more.

 

The thing is do i replace liners 1 and 4 seeing there is a lip and to more to one side than the other. Liners 2 and 3 seem to be pretty good and not much of a lip.

 

So replace 1 and 4 and keep 2 and 3 or do i need to all of them? I.e so that they are all the same?

 

Also i take it the rings will need sorting too.

 

I'm doing the mains and the big end bearings so will be able to take the pistons out to have a good look at them

 

Thanks

[jonnie205 1]

also spin the liners through 180 degrees, the thrust side is where the wear takes place.

[lagonda 41]

I took my liners to QEP for assessment when I was rebuilding my engine. Due to work I was delayed dismantling after head gasket failure & I was really annoyed to find a cup full of water in each bore. Needless to say some rusting had occurred. QEP reckoned one was too rusty where it mattered, but the other 3 would be OK after honing. So I followed their advice & all is running fine.

That said! I think the honing was £12-£15 each liner, & the new liner was around £30. If I'd realised there wasn't that much difference, I would have bought 4 new liners. ALSO! Needless to say, liner protrusion was slightly higher with the new liner than the 3 originals. Swapping them around helped, and the car has run fine since, but if I was doing it again, I'd just buy 4 new liners. If money's tight you'll probably get away with what you've got, but if you intend keeping the car, I'd check out how much new liners are. I believe QEP discount for Forum members.

[uncle buck 0]

Yeah I would pay the extra for a new liner rather than the honing.

 

I would pull the liners & pistons out, (marking them so you know what went where) give them a rub up with the wet & dry then take it from there.

 

You need to establish if the “pickling” is just on the surface or if it has went deeper. If its deeper & it doesn’t rub off with the wet & dry you can either go the honing route or new liner route.

You could try & pick up 2nd hand liners, but I would imagine more than likely you will find 2nd hand ones going as a set.

 

But first thing is to clean the liners up & see how they come up.

 

A lip at the top of a bore doesn’t necessarily mean that the bore isn’t still within spec….to put your mind at rest you could have the bores measured to check.

 

 

DrSarty,

I agree with you….you can’t have to much experience, all I’m pointing out is that you could ask 10 mechanics if you should replace a component & get a different answer every time.

 

Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing at all wrong with “internet mechanics” to use your term.

Just because someone is a time served mechanic doesn’t mean they have an aptitude for the profession or indeed know what they are talking about….some of the best “mechanics” I have known have been self taught….I would personally trust their opinion without question over that of the so called “professional”

 

Regards.

[j_turnell 134 3 Cars]

Yeah I would pay the extra for a new liner rather than the honing.

 

I would pull the liners & pistons out, (marking them so you know what went where) give them a rub up with the wet & dry then take it from there.

 

You need to establish if the “pickling” is just on the surface or if it has went deeper. If its deeper & it doesn’t rub off with the wet & dry you can either go the honing route or new liner route.

You could try & pick up 2nd hand liners, but I would imagine more than likely you will find 2nd hand ones going as a set.

 

But first thing is to clean the liners up & see how they come up.

 

A lip at the top of a bore doesn’t necessarily mean that the bore isn’t still within spec….to put your mind at rest you could have the bores measured to check.

DrSarty,

I agree with you….you can’t have to much experience, all I’m pointing out is that you could ask 10 mechanics if you should replace a component & get a different answer every time.

 

Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing at all wrong with “internet mechanics” to use your term.

Just because someone is a time served mechanic doesn’t mean they have an aptitude for the profession or indeed know what they are talking about….some of the best “mechanics” I have known have been self taught….I would personally trust their opinion without question over that of the so called “professional”

 

Regards.

 

 

Completely agree with the above.

 

But tbh without actually seeing them and measuring them your never going to tell so all people can do is but merely speculate. Personally, i'd take the bottom end to bits make sure everything is marked and take them to a decent engine builder and get their opinion and get them measured to see if they are within tolerance.

[smokey 0]

Thought i would update you on this.

 

Showed the pictures to Matt at QEP and he said the rust looked to be too deep and to replace the liners.

 

So there you go. If you get some liners like these you know what to do :-)

 

Thanks for all your help with this.

 

Looks like i have now completely rebuilt the engine.