My Proposed Track Day Suspension Setup

[Stu 18]

Howdoo guys, well given that the Mi is nearly run in now, its time to have a look at getting the suspension/brakes up to scratch..

 

So, after spending some time searching and reading, ive come up with this, what are your opinions on this setup?

 

 

Front:

 

309 bottom arms and driveshafts,

Convert my fairly new Bilsteins to coilovers with the kit from Rally Design, with say 200lb springs?

Standard bearings/topmounts, are Grp N ones a worthwhile addition?

Front upper strutbrace,

GTI-6 front disk setup, grooved and drilled disks, and i thought about using 1144's with them,

406 Non-abs m/c.

Standard hoses, decent fluid.

 

Rear:

 

309 rear beam,

ZX16v trailing arms,

Stock disks and pads,

GTI-6 shocks,

Stock lines, decent fluid.

 

The aim is to produce a fairly good 'budget' setup, ive already got a 309 beam in need of a rebuild i paid peanuts for, i plan to re-use the front billies so the rest of the bits to convert shouldnt be too expensive.

 

Does anyone else run this setup?

 

Whats do you guys think? Would this be a good track day setup? l'll be using slick too..

Edited January 2, 2008 by stu da rude

[309PUG 2 1 Cars]

If as you say your using slicks the extra load created would benefit from probably stiffer springs, to give you an idea, the stock hatch racing series the 205 guys are around 275 lb. I would say that slicks will allow you to go even stiffer but you must fit thicker TB's and / or ARB on the rear.

 

If your struts can be made to fit eccentric top mounts then definately get them on.

 

Hope that helps

 

Chris

[James_R 3]

sounds ok, although to start off I'd just run -30mm springs on the nose, seem to match a 309 beam pretty well.

 

As said if you plan to run slicks the sus ideally wants to be much stiffer to get all the possible traction out of them.

 

I'm runnign 285 on the nose and 24mm tb's on the rear and that's only on semi slicks and wasn't really hard enough.

[Anthony 1,000]

I was looking at the DIY coilover route, but it doesn't look like it'll fit a Bilstein shock body - the DIY coilovers are meant for 50mm diameter bodies, and the Bilstein's are 52mm (or atleast mine are).

 

With 200lb front springs you'll need to stiffen the rear up as well in my opinion, as otherwise it's liable to understeer. Average 205/309 lowering springs seem to be well balanced with the standard 309 GTi 20mm torsion bars. I'd definately put Group A mounts on the beam too.

 

My own setup is vaguely similar to yours otherwise - brakes and ARB's excluded - and works well as a road-track compromise, well balanced and no sting in the tail, although it needs to be stiffer to make full use of the slicks I sometimes use (which my planned 22mm torsion bars and circa 200lb springs should solve):

 

Front:

309 bottom arms and driveshafts,

Bilstein Sport dampers and Koni 40mm lowering springs

309 GTi front ARB

Group N top mount rubbers

Standard 1.9 calipers and disks with Ferodo DS2500 pads

Braided hoses, DOT5.1 fluid.

 

Rear:

309 rear beam,

ZX16v trailing arms,

24mm anti-roll bar,

Group A solid beam mounts

Stock disks and pads,

Bilstein Group N Tarmac Shocks,

Braided lines, DOT5.1 fluid.

[Stu 18]

Thanks for all the replies boys, i did wonder if the coilover kit would fit the damper, as a quick measure last night echo'd what you say Anthony.

 

So, in the light of what people have said i think ill stick with the billies as is, but lose the rediculous 60mm lowered springs that came with them in favour of some 30-40mm drop ones.

 

Other than that, go 309 front setup, 309 rear beam as proposed but with a Grp A mount kit (i meant to include that in the first post), and some slicks and hope for the best..

 

You say you use the 309 front arb Anthony, if i were to stick with the stock rear 309 arb, would it be wise to keep the stock 205 arb to try and keep the balance? i daresay on your car the 24mm rear arb and 309 front are evenly matched.

 

Anymore for anymore?

Edited January 2, 2008 by stu da rude

[Anthony 1,000]

You say you use the 309 front arb Anthony, if i were to stick with the stock rear 309 arb, would it be wise to keep the stock 205 arb to try and keep the balance? i daresay on your car the 24mm rear arb and 309 front are evenly matched.

Absolutely - anything less than a 24mm ARB on the back I'd always stick with the 205 ARB on the front.

 

Prior to fitting the thicker front and rear ARB's I ran a 205 front and standard 309 GTi rear ARB, and it was a well balanced setup that I was happy with - fitting the ARB's reduced roll, increased turn-in and gave the car a more planted feel

[Stu 18]

Coolio.. We have a plan then. Just need to come by the bits now..

 

Anyone have any more thoughts?

[sutol 0]

Coolio.. We have a plan then. Just need to come by the bits now..

 

Anyone have any more thoughts?

I don't suppose you can adjust the toe on the rear ?

What are you using up front? paralel or toe out or do you need to experiment.?

[Stu 18]

Im open to suggestions mate, id sort of planned on having it tracked back up to standard to start with and experiment from there.

 

The only 'toe' mod i can make to the rear is using the ZX16v rear trailing arms, as much as id like a fully rosejointed setup with coilovers and such, eating and having a roof over ones head is also important...

[sutol 0]

Im open to suggestions mate, id sort of planned on having it tracked back up to standard to start with and experiment from there.

Personally I would go with zero in or out on the front to start, or you could have it set standard and mark the arms then toe it out a bit at a time and see how it goes, that way you can always but it back it you get a bit frightened.

[Stu 18]

Lol..

 

Sounds like a plan!

[daveyboyblack 1]

I'm not sure if your car is stripped out or not? If it is then I wouldn't bother with the GTi-6 disk setup, and spend the money on better pads - maybe ds2500s? and possibly some braided hoses. I think most people have found standard or grooved discs perfectly good for trackdays, and drilled discs do have a tendancy to crack unless you've got a really light car.

 

I've just upgraded to grooved Brembo discs from GSF and some ds2500s and RBF 600 fluid, so will have to wait until Bedford on the 26th Jan to see if I'll have to eat my own words!

 

However if you've still got all of the interior in your car then you can't really go wrong with the GTi-6 setup, so long as you swap the m/c.

 

Can't comment on much of the rest of the setup, but does sound pretty good and not OTT.

 

Is it a trackday only car, or weekends as well? I've currently got 50mm springs on mine which are just horrid on the road but i'm gonna wait to see how the car fares on track before thinking about changing to something a little taller.

 

Best thing I can suggest is to upgrade as you go along, rather than try to start with the "perfect" setup..... as with most things, people prefer different setups so it's down to how you'd like the car to drive

 

Dave

[Stu 18]

Yeah its all stripped out bud, i did think maybe the 6 setup might be a little OTT after looking at James' and Anthonys specs, but the entire setup is coming for a little less than a set of decent standard size disks and pads, so it'd be rude not to really..

 

Mine came with the billies and -60mm springs, it too is s*ite on the road, when i rebuilt the lump i added a 6 sump and baffle to help the surge problem, so ground clearance is even tighter now with the XU10 sump.

 

Ill try a set of -40ish springs first, after previous experience at Donnington i think there would be very little left of the sump with the -60's on.

 

Thanks again for all the comments/advice peeps, keep 'em coming!

[Stu 18]

Anymore for anymore?

[kyepan 291]

my ten cents.

 

having gone from standard to pretty much the setup you're describing ( and a bit more) i'm still very unsatisfied with the understeer / lack of balance as compared to the same car when it was standard.

 

bottom line is if you increase the front spring rate without increasing the thickness of the rear torsion bars your going to have a car that will always understeer.

 

big brakes like the gti-6 kit or the 307hdi / gti180 set up will increase the unsprung mass of the front by 5kgs a side, you would need to offset this increase with lighter wheels (oz superlegeras 4.6kgs as opposed to 15 inch speedlines circa 9kgs) else wise loose the

 

if your rebuilding the beam, i would definitly get some thicker torsion bars, they are an investment but (and i say this without owning a set) worth it, if the results of the thicker 24mm rear antiroll bar are anything to go by.

 

hope this helps, set up below.

 

gaz adjustable coilovers

8 or 10 inch 200lbs springs

new top mounts etc

wishbones set to level

309 bones and shafts

quaiffe diff

288mm discs 307 setup with brembo 2500 pads

 

24mm arb at rear, standard at front

solid rear beam mounts

rear beam lowered 30mm (one spline)

 

 

further to this, a question.

 

if it's stripped out, how does that affect the front rear weight balance with driver and 20l of fuel, and should you factor that in when stiffening the rear spring rate?

Edited January 4, 2008 by kyepan

[Batfink 201]

As capable as Justins car is, i sadly couldnt get on with it as the steering was way too heavy for me to have fun. Do things in small stages so you can analyse each step for its merits and any potential problems.

I came up with a few conclusions.

a: its toeing out on both fronts too much - maybe due to 309 arms?

b: Tyre pressures are low

c: I have weedy arms (probably the most likely)

d: I dont like the heavy 1.9 alloys (swap to lighter ones and you notice a massive difference) ((would heavier brakes affect this too)

 

i digress

[kyepan 291]

As capable as Justins car is, i sadly couldnt get on with it as the steering was way too heavy for me to have fun. Do things in small stages so you can analyse each step for its merits and any potential problems.

I came up with a few conclusions.

a: its toeing out on both fronts too much - maybe due to 309 arms?

b: Tyre pressures are low

c: I have weedy arms (probably the most likely)

d: I dont like the heavy 1.9 alloys (swap to lighter ones and you notice a massive difference) ((would heavier brakes affect this too)

 

i digress

as capable as my car is, I would agree with batfink, he does have weedy arms

 

and the steering is sooooo heavy, toe is neutral however, may try adjusting the tyre pressures this evening... 35psi perhaps.

[Anthony 1,000]

having gone from standard to pretty much the setup you're describing ( and a bit more) i'm still very unsatisfied with the understeer / lack of balance as compared to the same car when it was standard.

200lb front springs and standard 19mm torsion bars is the problem - front spring rate is far too hard relative to the rear (which would have to be in the order of 22mm bars to balance out with the front springs I'd say) and trying to mask that with a thicker anti-roll bar isn't really the solution.

 

Even normal 205 lowering springs (which I'd guess are in the order of about 160lb) coupled with a standard 205 GTi beam (19mm bars) makes the car too understeer-prone on the limit for my tastes, although they seem to complement the slightly stiffer 309 GTi beam (20mm bars) quite nicely.

 

and the steering is sooooo heavy, toe is neutral however, may try adjusting the tyre pressures this evening... 35psi perhaps.

Find the underlying cause - don't try masking the problem with over-inflated tires.

 

If the tracking and pressure are definately fine, then dead top mount bearings (if you've still got them with your coilovers) or a tired steering rack would be my first suspicion. That said, the steering on my '89 205 has always been very heavy for some reason despite replacing or swaping out just about everything - it's certainly not impossibly heavy and I get used to it and think that it's "normal" - right up until I drive other peoples 205's that feel like they have PAS by comparison!

[welshpug 1,622]

might even be the actual tyres you run Anthony, I've found different tyres even give a different steering feel.

 

I think a lot has to do with driving style more than anything, I remember a Fifth gear clip on Youtube of Jason Plato testing the most recent Litchfield Type 25 and the contrast between 2 styles of turning in was quite surprising, and I don't doubt that the same thing would apply to a car like the 205.

 

I'll see if I can dig it out.

[kyepan 291]

front spring rate is far too hard relative to the rear (which would have to be in the order of 22mm bars to balance out with the front springs I'd say) and trying to mask that with a thicker anti-roll bar isn't really the solution.

totally agree.. 22mm bars need to be ordered, wonder who could help with that

 

If the tracking and pressure are definately fine, then dead top mount bearings (if you've still got them with your coilovers) or a tired steering rack would be my first suspicion. That said, the steering on my '89 205 has always been very heavy for some reason despite replacing or swaping out just about everything - it's certainly not impossibly heavy and I get used to it and think that it's "normal" - right up until I drive other peoples 205's that feel like they have PAS by comparison!

It only got really heavy when the diff went in, before it was ok. and once rolling and on neutral throttle its reasonably light, i've been thinking about an electric pas rack for a while, but don't mind the heavy steering, its got bags of feel. But to answer the questions, I put in new top mount rubbers, bearings and stuff when i changed the suspension over to coilovers.

Edited January 4, 2008 by kyepan

[Batfink 201]

J - I have a pas rack spare I think. Get an electric motor for it and you are away

[Stu 18]

Thanks for all the replies boys, ive sacked the coilover and 200lb springs idea for now, at least until i can get some beefier t/b's and arb for the 309 beam.

 

So, the updated spec is such:

 

Front:

 

309 bottom arms and driveshafts,

Bilsteins with -30/40mm lowering springs. (btw if anyone wants some newish -60's in a swap for -30/40's let me know..

205 front ARB,

GTI-6 front brake setup, (unless the deal falls through then i'll source a 266mm setup with some 1144's)

Standard hoses,

406 non-abs m/c

Decent fluid

 

Rear:

 

309 beam, t/b's and arb,

ZX trailing arms,

GTI-6 dampers,

stock pads/disks/hoses

Decent fluid.

 

Sound like a decent 'budget' setup?

[Stu 18]

Just thought id drag this thread from the archive with a little update...

 

Ive just finished building a 309 beam for it after my oprevious 309 GTI was fubar'd and the 205 one died..

 

Spec to date is such:

 

Front:

 

Billies with -40mm springs,

Grp A top mounts,

309 bottom arms/shafts rebushed with a Pug kit,

Stock ARB,

Strutbrace,

GTI-6 Disk setup with genuine pads,

406 M/C,

New fluid.

 

 

Rear:

 

Rebuilt 309 base model beam with 309 GTI bars and ARB,

Group A mount kit,

Koni Sport adjustable dampers (currently on position 1)

Drilled/grooved disks with some Ferrodo Premier pads.

 

Im on need of a rack now as mine has play, so i intend to replace it with something, havent decided if its worth moving across to a PAS rack without the ram as a cheap quick rack or whether to just replace for standard.

 

I had it tracked up previously with 0degrees toe and found it a little 'wandering', but it may well have been the rack. Im thinking next time ill run 1degree, i kinda miss the 'self centering' nature of a stock 1900 205.

 

Opinions welcome as ever, can anyone spot any obvious flaws/areas for improvement?

 

Ill be using semi-slicks (A032R's) for the time being simply because i cant get hold of any full slicks.

[jonnie205 1]

you want a xsara vts rack

[Stu 18]

Ive looked into that Jonnie, and if im honest im still not 100% sure of whats involved, im fairly sure it bolts on, but do you need to change the bottom shaft for the Xsara one? will that mate to the 205 column?