205 Gti-6

[eafertynyne 1]

Hi All,

 

My 205 GTI-6 had it's first track outing at the weekend and the rear end was all over the place...... I eventually lost it, span 360 and spent the rest of the day crapping myself. The rear end was breaking away even without lifting off!!

 

This is the set up:

Car totally stripped.

All 205 running gear.

Pirelli P6000 road tyres.

Bilstein Sprintline Kit (-25mm), but standard ride height at the rear.

7 year old torsion bar.

 

I'm putting the problem down to crap tyres (wheel-spin in 4th) and silly ride height at the rear. (I shan't mention anything about the driver!!)

So... I'm now having the rear torsion bar lowered 1 spline and getting myself a set of Toyo R888's.

 

Is this the right route to take? And what next? I don't want to spend much more money; this thing's swallowed far more than I'd first envisaged and I'd expected so much more from the car.

 

Thanks for reading my lengthy winge..... any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers people.

[WildCards 0]

We're your tyre pressures checked? The first time I drove mine the pressures were all to cock and it felt very skittish at the back.

 

Do you have any strut braces at the front?

[Dino 3]

I think you have answered your own question

 

Crap tyres and high rear end.

 

Nuff said.

[Anthony 1,000]

P6000's are really quite dire and certainly won't have been helping, particularly in the wet.

 

Worth checking that the beam is in good condition (if it was new/rebuilt 7 years ago then it should still be serviceable) and that the rear sandwich mounts haven't perished and split in two, as that can make the rear very unpredictable.

 

I assume you checked the tyre pressures as mentioned above - standard road pressures (29psi cold all round) would have been OK as a starting point although not ideal.

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

I suffered similar kind of handling at a wet trackday at Castle Combe when I had Yokohama tyres on the back and F1s on the front, the rear would slide round due to the inbalance of grip from Yokohama tyres being rubbish in the wet. So I would say it's not the tyres so much as you have the same all round, it could be pressures though as said above.

[eafertynyne 1]

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

 

No front strut braces on the front..... would these add to the lift-off oversteer problem?

 

Tyre pressures were 28psi all round, but didn't play with them at all on the day.

 

Can the condition of the rear mounts be checked without removing the beam? Sorry if that's a daft question!!

 

I'm having the torsion bars adjusted as I type and a set of R888's have been ordered. I've got Donington coming up soon (please be dry!!) and if these bits don't help significantly, expect my next post to be in the "cars for sale" section!!

 

Is there any other 'cost effective' (read cheap) way of reducing this dreaded lift-of oversteer?

 

Once again, thanks.

[Anthony 1,000]

Can the condition of the rear mounts be checked without removing the beam? Sorry if that's a daft question!!

Yes - with the car jacked up and axle stands on the shell rather than beam, check the mounts that are at the rear of the beam (one per side) and see if either side has up/down movement when using a pry bar. On most 205/309's I see, if these mounts haven't been replaced then atleast one has usually split in two if not both.

 

You can replace them without removing the beam, although you do need to loosen the front mounts off.

 

Is there any other 'cost effective' (read cheap) way of reducing this dreaded lift-of oversteer?

Group A (solid) beam mounts work well in my opinion - there's a couple of sets for £30 odd in the For Sale section.

 

The whole beam needs to come off to fit the front mounts though (rears can be done in-situ), so not that cheap if you're unable to do the work yourself.

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Stripping out a 205, esp a 1.9, can seem to upset the brake balance to the back of the car, making it prone to locking as well. 1.9's tend to be a little worse from what I have heard and this may be due to the angle of the rear brake compensaters, but i could be totally wrong!

[jackherer 543]

Stripping out a 205, esp a 1.9, can seem to upset the brake balance to the back of the car, making it prone to locking as well. 1.9's tend to be a little worse from what I have heard and this may be due to the angle of the rear brake compensaters, but i could be totally wrong!

 

 

1.9 compensators aren't affected by mounting angle like 1.6 ones.

[Spiky 37]

28psi??

 

was that cold and before you went out??

 

as it's best to do a session, and come in and set the pressures straight after to around 30

 

wheel spin in 4th? defo tyres/tyres pressure then, as i dont get spin then

[swordfish210 20]

I agree with Spikey. When i was at Combe last year i was suffering with an unpredictable rear end (although nowhere near as bad as what you are describing) so i adjusted my tyre pressurers from 28F and 27R to 38F and 35R and the difference was unbeliveable the car was so much more stable from the off and i was much more confident when driving it hard

[eafertynyne 1]

Cheers for the advice all.

 

Think I'm going to have pay more attention to tyre pressures!!

 

I'll get the garage to have a look at those rear beam mounts too.

 

Spiky: Is the 30psi on your R888's? If so, this will be my starting point.

 

Also, just an observation, the rear supension seems much softer than the front; is this normal for Sprintlines? Or will it stiffen up with the lowering of the torsion bars?

 

Oh yeah just another quickie - will relocating the battery to the back and leaving the spare wheel in place help reduce the oversteer?

 

All silly questions I'm sure to you guys.... thanks for the patience.

[oli-pug 6 2 Cars]

yeh, just remember with tyre pressures the lower they are, the quicker they heat up so when using road tyres on say a 15-20 min session you really want to set them to 30psi upwards depending on how hard you're pushing, otherwise they'll be overheating by the second lap.

 

i set my eagle f1's (pretty crap on track btw) to 33psi front and 31psi rear and they lasted 10-15mins without much fuss.

[ashley peddle 3]

is it wise running slicks with relativly standard suspension? surely decent road tyres will be more than good enough for your set up?

 

first time i went out i had cheap tyres on the rear, the beam was siezed and unlowered... caught me out and i ended up facing the wrong way (and then in the field, lol )

[Garry 1]

Might be obvious, but I haven't seen this asked yet, was it wet or dry?

 

When I run with my Marshall Power racer tyres on the back in the wet my car is lethal. Unless I am very smooth with the steering and have the throttle balanced the back end will step out very quickly.

 

I had this at cadwell the previous weekend, I disconnected the rear ARB and put the R888's on and it was much better.

 

I would say it was your tyres and maybe your technique.

[eafertynyne 1]

Might be obvious, but I haven't seen this asked yet, was it wet or dry?

 

When I run with my Marshall Power racer tyres on the back in the wet my car is lethal. Unless I am very smooth with the steering and have the throttle balanced the back end will step out very quickly.

 

I had this at cadwell the previous weekend, I disconnected the rear ARB and put the R888's on and it was much better.

 

I would say it was your tyres and maybe your technique.

 

It was cold and wet, my first time in the 205 and my first time at Goodwood, so a big learning curve all round really.

 

My previous trackday car behaved totally differently and was far more confidence inspiring, so you're technique comment is probably valid. This thing just scared me witless!! Had a few GTI 205's and 309's in the early days and never encountered anything like this.... Maybe my rose-tinted eye wear playing up again!!

[Garry 1]

I would say it will be alot different in the dry, you are probably used to the massive grip of the scoob!

I hate my car in the wet, love it in the dry.

[SPGTi 2]

Also, just an observation, the rear supension seems much softer than the front; is this normal for Sprintlines? Or will it stiffen up with the lowering of the torsion bars?

 

I can never remember which model of Bilstein has the really soft rear dampers, but I think it is the Sprintline. I am sure someone will confirm. If it is, you are better off using std rear dampers or getting some std ones off a 306GTi-6.

 

Steve

[Anthony 1,000]

I can never remember which model of Bilstein has the really soft rear dampers, but I think it is the Sprintline. I am sure someone will confirm. If it is, you are better off using std rear dampers or getting some std ones off a 306GTi-6.

You're thinking of Streetline (Black) dampers, which are c**p frankly.

 

Sprintline (Yellow) dampers are pretty good as a road/track compromise

[Spiky 37]

i have a brand new set of gti6 K6 rear shocks for sale, done about 500 miles

 

 

my temps are 30 straight after a session so hot.

 

starting off with 34 cold and going on track, you'll be seeing nearly 40 HOT they must be like an egg????

[DaveW 6]

P6000s are not good for hard use, ive nearly crashed doing loos with them in the dry! so on a wet/damp track must of been like on ice!

[Alastairh 47]

Deffinatly down to your tyres. P6000s are horrific. Just ask Anthony and my experience outside of the forum...

 

But i agree with Henry aswell. Even taking your rear seats and door cards (maybe its a cyclogical thing) but i find with 205s at standard ride height can really upset it

 

Chuck a nice thick arb in once you've got new tyres and shocks, and you'll have ALOT of fun

 

Al

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

check the beam isnt siezed as with it sticking up in the air compared to the front it would cause issues. My first GTi ended up on its roof coz of low front with a semi-seized high rear.

The back will still seem as soft as standard on sprintline as the 'springs' (torsion bars) are still the same unless you have changed them.

When lowering the rear check if it bottoms out on the bump stops, mine did after only 1 spline and casued what u describe, twitchy back end coming out even on power etc... Cut the tapered bit off them and its all good now.

 

good luck

 

Henry.

[SPGTi 2]

You're thinking of Streetline (Black) dampers, which are c**p frankly.

 

Sprintline (Yellow) dampers are pretty good as a road/track compromise

 

Like I said I can never remember which ones are which. In my mind I had just created the Sportline range

 

Steve

[Anthony 1,000]

Like I said I can never remember which ones are which. In my mind I had just created the Sportline range

To confuse matters, Bilstein do actually do a "Sport" damper range as well - they're effectively full travel versions of the Sprintline dampers AFAIK