Ethos 0 Posted October 6, 2007 Hi guys, Popped over to Steve@Cornwalls earlier and he gave the car a good look over! Got a couple things working for me and generally had a look around, much appreciated mate! We took it out for the drive and Steve confirmed it feels down on power, we also did a quick compression test which read a bit higher than the other day which is good. Steve said that the timing belt could be a notch out resulting in a performance drop. Does anyone know something/where in Cornwall where I can get his looked at? Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted October 6, 2007 Hi guys, Popped over to Steve@Cornwalls earlier and he gave the car a good look over! Got a couple things working for me and generally had a look around, much appreciated mate! We took it out for the drive and Steve confirmed it feels down on power, we also did a quick compression test which read a bit higher than the other day which is good. Steve said that the timing belt could be a notch out resulting in a performance drop. Does anyone know something/where in Cornwall where I can get his looked at? Thanks Just a little footnote - the ignition can be advanced to the full range of the dizzy and still not pink when hooned up a F'ing big hill. My method of pushing the belt off and moving the cam wheel isn't really the thing to do to someone elses car! So someone who can slacken off and re-tension the belt properly is needed! - someone local must be able to step up to the mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted October 8, 2007 Its not hard to move the timing belt round one tooth, with the flywheel & cam locked properly you don't need to have the crank pulley loose, just the tensioner. With the timing pins in the right holes on the cam & crank its less than an hours work. (can't get cam wrong but crank you can, see attached picture for correct hole). Easiest way is to lock the crank in place & remove the cambelt from the cam pulley & then turn the centre bolt to get the timing pin in before refitting the cambelt if you do need to retime it. Graham.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted October 8, 2007 Its not hard to move the timing belt round one tooth, with the flywheel & cam locked properly you don't need to have the crank pulley loose, just the tensioner. With the timing pins in the right holes on the cam & crank its less than an hours work. (can't get cam wrong but crank you can, see attached picture for correct hole). Easiest way is to lock the crank in place & remove the cambelt from the cam pulley & then turn the centre bolt to get the timing pin in before refitting the cambelt if you do need to retime it. Graham. ok so with a standard cam pulley you cant go wrong on teh cam timing cause as long at the 2 timing pins line up with the 2 locking holes its timed correctly, is that what ur sayin?! just a shame i have a damn vernier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted October 8, 2007 (edited) ok so with a standard cam pulley you cant go wrong on teh cam timing cause as long at the 2 timing pins line up with the 2 locking holes its timed correctly, is that what ur sayin?! just a shame i have a damn vernier My worry is getting the belt tension wrong on somebody else's car! To check the timing on mine I mark the cam wheel and belt, slip the belt off at full tension , move the cam wheel one tooth and push the belt back on. easy - peasy 10 mins work. If the belt breaks I have no problem in fitting another engine! To do somebody else's I'd want to release the belt tension first so as not to overstress or damage the belt (lever it off like a bike tyre ) . Problem is I have no way of correctly tensioning the belt and would feel gutted if their belt snapped! Edited October 8, 2007 by steve@cornwall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted October 8, 2007 My worry is getting the belt tension wrong on somebody else's car!To check the timing on mine I mark the cam wheel and belt, slip the belt off at full tension , move the cam wheel one tooth and push the belt back on. easy - peasy 10 mins work. If the belt breaks I have no problem in fitting another engine! To do somebody else's I'd want to release the belt tension first so as not to overstress or damage the belt (lever it off like a bike tyre ) . Problem is I have no way of correctly tensioning the belt and would feel gutted if their belt snapped! i must say i dont know how to deal with the tensioner when changing a cam belt as i havent actually ever done one, somethin ive not trusted myself with yet so dont actually know the procedure of slackin of and re-tensioning the belt via the tensioner!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted October 9, 2007 If you've locked the crankshaft & the belt tension was fine before then moving the cam pulley position one tooth with the belt off won't change the tensioning at all once you refit it with the pulley in the right place for the timing pin. You're not moving the belt, just the pulley. However you do it always check the belt tension before driving it anyway. Even with the later roller eccentric tensioners as long as the belt run along the front of the engine isn't slack you won't have a problem. If everything is still standard then using the standard timing pin holes is the best (& easiest) way to make sure it all stays right. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted October 9, 2007 If you've locked the crankshaft & the belt tension was fine before then moving the cam pulley position one tooth with the belt off won't change the tensioning at all once you refit it with the pulley in the right place for the timing pin. You're not moving the belt, just the pulley. However you do it always check the belt tension before driving it anyway. Even with the later roller eccentric tensioners as long as the belt run along the front of the engine isn't slack you won't have a problem. If everything is still standard then using the standard timing pin holes is the best (& easiest) way to make sure it all stays right. Graham. So is it safe enough to push the belt on and off without releasing tension? - If so I'm more than willing to do it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted October 9, 2007 No, I said previously with the tension released. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ethos 0 Posted October 9, 2007 If we can get some power back from doing this I'm gonna be CHUFFED! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted October 10, 2007 ive never had to attempt it but how do you slacken off and adjust the tensioner?! how tight should it be set to?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted October 10, 2007 ive never had to attempt it but how do you slacken off and adjust the tensioner?! how tight should it be set to?! Most 8v 205 GTi's will have the sprung tensioner which is locked by two 11mm nuts on the tensioner body & has a cam to release the tension from the belt to aid removing it. Once the belt is refitted the cam is released & the belt tensioned up automatically. Then tighten the two 11mm nuts back up to clamp the tensioner in place. On the late 205 8v's an eccentric roller tensioner is fitted just like on an Mi & that has a square drive to rottate the tensioner to set the belt tension. What ever type of tensioner is fitted, the belt is tensioned so that it can't be turned through 90' on the longest run between the pulleys on the front of the engine. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted October 11, 2007 got round to checking the setting on my vernier pulley today as i bought the ccar with a piper 270 cam (waste of time) and a vernier pulley already fitted but the power band seemed to be really delayed ie 4500 - 5000 rpm when it should be more like 2500 sure enough following everyones help of cheking teh timing it was out slightly, how much i am unsure but i couldnt adjust teh vernier anymore as it was right at the end of its adjustment range (a bit strange) i found it very hard to get an accurate ATDC Deg Reading because the duration of the cam meant that the valve seemed to be fully open for a few degrees and so the smallest movement on the cam pulley would move the timing disc on the crank puley up to 5-8 deg ish was i doin somethin wrong?! it does seem more responsive but i am still gonna try a few other things like new afm and dizzy!! just strange how the vernier was adjusted to teh max it could in one direction!!!! any ideas?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted October 11, 2007 You might have the vernier pulley a tooth out on the belt. Have you been checking the cam is at the centre of true full lift true full lift at the right degree of rotation after TDC? You need a DTI on the follower etc to do this accurately. I did mine by starting with the original cam pulley on to set the timing pin in the right place. Then I matched the vernier cam pin with the original pulley tang & the teeth in line. Then after finding true TDC on #1 piston at true TDC (there is a dwell angle to account for) with the vernier fitted, turn the crank through the degree advised with your cam (iirc with a Piper 270' cam its 108') & check that the valve is also at true full lift. This is where the vernier comes into play & you need the DTI on the follower to check it. As you are getting close to 108' (from about 95' upwards), watch the DTi closely to see that it doesn't pass full lift & is closing again or if it is still increasing up to the right angle movement. If it is still moving, stop & lock the crank at 108' & with the vernier loose, advance the cam on the vernier while watching the DTi to see when it peaks. Make a note of the degree of movement from zero to this peak & carry on until it starts to drop again. Note this reading & set the cam to the mid point between these two readings on the vernier. Lock everything up & check it from scratch again. From actual piston TDC, turn the crank by 108' to check the cam is at full lift on the DTI. It will be at full lift from say 106' to 110'. If this is right, check the vernier is tight & your done, if not start again with the vernier back at zero until you get it rigth. Check twice, set once. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ethos 0 Posted October 12, 2007 Ok, so not being very mechanically minded is it possible to change the timing belt a notch without lots of hassle? I'm trying to understand it all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted October 13, 2007 Ok, so not being very mechanically minded is it possible to change the timing belt a notch without lots of hassle? I'm trying to understand it all Yes, sorry its gone a bit off topic in the last few replies. Fit the crankshaft & camshaft timing pins in place (or just the crank if the cam pin won't line up exactly with the hole in teh head casting but about a tooth) to lock it in place, loosen your tensioner & slide the belt off the side of the cam pulley alone, turn it with a spanner on the centre nut one tooth, refit the cambelt & re-tension it up. Removethe timing pin from the crank pulley & turn the crank two rotations & check the pins fit back the crank & cam pulley holes. Ignore my last reply with regards to the vernier, your car shouldn't have one if it has the standard cam & the head hasn't ever been off for skimming. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wardy18 33 1 Cars Posted October 16, 2007 You might have the vernier pulley a tooth out on the belt. Have you been checking the cam is at the centre of true full lift true full lift at the right degree of rotation after TDC? You need a DTI on the follower etc to do this accurately. I did mine by starting with the original cam pulley on to set the timing pin in the right place. Then I matched the vernier cam pin with the original pulley tang & the teeth in line. Then after finding true TDC on #1 piston at true TDC (there is a dwell angle to account for) with the vernier fitted, turn the crank through the degree advised with your cam (iirc with a Piper 270' cam its 108') & check that the valve is also at true full lift. This is where the vernier comes into play & you need the DTI on the follower to check it. As you are getting close to 108' (from about 95' upwards), watch the DTi closely to see that it doesn't pass full lift & is closing again or if it is still increasing up to the right angle movement. If it is still moving, stop & lock the crank at 108' & with the vernier loose, advance the cam on the vernier while watching the DTi to see when it peaks. Make a note of the degree of movement from zero to this peak & carry on until it starts to drop again. Note this reading & set the cam to the mid point between these two readings on the vernier. Lock everything up & check it from scratch again. From actual piston TDC, turn the crank by 108' to check the cam is at full lift on the DTI. It will be at full lift from say 106' to 110'. If this is right, check the vernier is tight & your done, if not start again with the vernier back at zero until you get it rigth. Check twice, set once. Graham. hi mate tahnx for the great info this is exactly what i did and with you sayin about the follower being at full lift from 106deg to 110deg puts my mind at rest, i found this and wasnt prepared for it so had to work out what was goin on but because the duration of teh cam obviously the valve will be fully open for a few degrees and then start closing again ie after 110deg i am pretty sure the vernier is a tooth out because i have had to adjust it to the maximum in a certain direction, so next time i will adjust it back to the middle then move the belt off and spin teh pulley a tooth back or forward which ever way i need to go then push the belt back on then go throu the process again i do need to work out at what crank deg the follower is fully open ie 106deg and then work out when it starts to close ie 110deg liek you said because i didnt adjust it to the centre figure ie 108deg, so next time being a little more experienced i should have it spot on practice ma\kes perfect thanx for your help simon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ethos 0 Posted October 20, 2007 Well, big thanks to Steve yet again!!! Moved the timing belt a notch and wow what a difference! She's a different beast, and sounds completely different on boot. Ignition timing is out now though so I think I might suggest to the missus that we get a new cam belt and get the ignition timing setup... I even managed to get a little bit sideways the first time I had a play on the roundabout, oops. Mini service next I think!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trialster 0 Posted February 6, 2008 some helpfull info in here! so, when the two holes on both bottom and top pulleys line up, does this mean that the relationship between the two's position is correct? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 242 3 Cars Posted February 6, 2008 so, when the two holes on both bottom and top pulleys line up, does this mean that the relationship between the two's position is correct? Yes, when the cam pulley hole is lined up with the hole in the head casting & the crank hole with the tab in the lower crank seal plate / hole in the timing cover they are in the right place. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trialster 0 Posted February 6, 2008 Yes, when the cam pulley hole is lined up with the hole in the head casting & the crank hole with the tab in the lower crank seal plate / hole in the timing cover they are in the right place. Graham. awesome, cheers for that all seems so simple when you know how Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
