1.6 Transplant Help

[dirtdog 4]

right first things first. i got a STDT, and i'm lookin at sorting it out in a while. full suspension kit, big brakes are being done in next few weeks.

 

second of all, engine size i want is 1600. theres gonna be people coming here..get turbo..get mi..but..i want a 1600. its not for a certain class or nothing it's just..personal preference.

 

i think it should be quite a easy swap?(it is a smaller engine afterall) or am i thinking wrong?lol. obviously the tank will have to go i plan on buying a gti engine and rebuilding it before putting it in so i'll have a little tinker with it before it goes in. i've had a look on hiflow heads and a few other places and i have been wondering if anyone can give me a estimation?

money is a issue..but not too much of an issue. what kinda power output i looking at if i put on a stage 2 head(skimmed&ported),cams and pulleys, manifold, filter etc.

 

i think i'll be lookin at like..130-140?

 

also can anyone tell me where to get/and how much a mandrel bent manifold? prehaps forged pistons, conrods.

 

also..does anyone have a dry sump ? i want to know what size tank and pump to use. can someone give me a description of how to mount engine lower and tilt back slightly for best centre of gravity. i've only ever heard of it before.

 

 

 

just some food for my thoughts. thanks

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Carbs or injection? For injection you will need an ecu loom etc & the under dash mounting brackets for it.

 

What cam are you thinking of using?

 

Fitting all this to an STDT is going to need a bit more than just swapping the tank etc.

 

Why exactly do you want a dry sump or info on lowering the engine / changing the angle it sits at?

 

Mandrel bent manifolds are available from various places, I think the magnex one is mandrel bent for use in a standard engine fitment 205 but if you start changing the angle & height the engine is sat at you are looking at bespoke items which will all add to the cost.

 

Forged pistons & rods, speak to mattsav at QEP or neil at DES developments, both can help with prices for these & should be able to give an idea on expected power output from the desired spec of your engine.

 

Graham.

[dirtdog 4]

i'd probably prefere to use carbs anyway,but especially if they are easier to use. i'll be honest and say that i don't know what kinda cams. i know theres like..275/285 and stuff which is double dutch to me. but..i'd say fast road cam..not like a race/rally cam.i dont' want a super sloppy idle.

 

what other kinda work you think the STDT will need to undergo? I'm already thinking new engine/gearbox mounts& bushes, driveshafts and fuel lines.

 

as for the dry sump..i want one so the engine can be mounted lower. i've heard it helps the handling as its a lower center of gravity or something along those lines..don't wanna get scientific.lol. i know because the oil isn't stored in sump you can get a shallower one like, which in turn means more clearance..meaning it can be dropped more. and i heard they good at protecting your motor..but i've also heard of anti surge pumps and windage trays?

 

changing the angle..that again is to hopefully shift more weight into the centre of the car. with the current engine its very front end heavy and i'd thats why i want the 1600. obviously i can do wtihout the dry sump and angling but it is a nice thought.

 

 

as for the manifolds..whats the best layout to get for midrange? i know theres 4-1 , 4-2-1 and stuff but not what they change.

 

 

thanks a lot

[welshpug 1,622]

1600 1900 and alloy mi16 are pretty close in balance (and 1.6/9 are near identical in weight), with the 16valver being heavier on the back end of the engine (i.e behind the front wheels, just)

 

dropping the engine will lead to harsh driveshaft angles, especially if the car is lowered at all.

 

best off buying a 1600 gti IMO, how much would you want for the STDT?

[dirtdog 4]

i dont see how a 1900 and a 1600 would weigh "near identical" and i thought they was both 8v? but then again i could be wrong. i would be buying new driveshafts anyway, but yes it is going to be lowered. if this is the case then i may just try to find a european 1300 rallye engine or one from a 106and not lower the engine. but i guess a mi 205 would probably produce about the same mpg driven nicely?

but i've heard that the mi conversion isn't exactly a walk in the park.. modding bulk heads and..god knows what else. it sounds expensive to me.lol

 

 

 

i don't want to sell the STDT. okay yes..its a shame to change it around but.... it' can't sit in it's sport trim and still have a derv lump sitting unda the bonnet. it's just..wrong....all wrong! it's only got 75k GENIUNE so it's a proper little minter. the body is sound and i've owned it for about 2 years now.

 

++PLUS++

i get people trying to race me in right on disgraceful things..saxos with lexus lights and god damn zetec s and..oh my god, it infuriates me but...recently a corsa c with wait for it...alloys!! i'm in a derv with like..80 bhp.....it's not exactly great yea.lol..but because all these nob jockeys are used to me plodding along i would LOOOOVE to suprise them all with a brand new engine tone, fly past them tyres smokin and exhaust sending a nice flame licking all over their bumper/bonet/windscreen whatever

[GLPoomobile 958]

I think it's commendable that you are more interested in going as light as possible rather than just following the usual route of going for whatever is going to give the biggest bang per buck. There's few people on here who are big fans of the smaller 8v TU engines, you may want to do a search (if your sanity can hold out, what with the IPS errors ) under Sandy309's topics/posts, or even just get in touch via PM. The only thing with the TUs is that they do sit upright so you aren't going to have the COG as low and as far back as with an XU engine. In all honesty I don't think it makes a huge difference though.

 

To answer a few other points mentioned.....

 

Lowering the engine would adversely affect the driveshaft angle, which would be further worsened by having the ride height lowered, depending on just how low you are thinking of going. Having new driveshafts is neither here nor there, it's simply a case of putting them under extra stress and so you could be going through driveshafts in no time at all.

 

The 1.9 XU is not significantly heavier than the 1.6. They are fundamentally the same engine.

 

An Mi conversion is not particularly complicated, mechanically speaking. The wiring may scare some people, but it's probably no worse than going from a Diesel to a Petrol engine anyway. GTi6 would be the better way to go but since weight is an issue then you could consider the alloy block 1.8 16V with a GTi6 head ect, which has been discussed a few times. Again, Sandy309 is your man on that one.

 

Overall though, I just don't think there is any point in worrying too much about weight and CoG, or going to extreme lengths to lower the engine and dry sump it. When you consider all the people on here who have dedicated track 205s with heavier GTi6 engines and it's no issue to them.

 

Another avenue worth researching is Smckeown's old topics (not sure if I've spelled his name right). He's banned from the forum now, but he was quite weight obsessed with his 205 track car. He used a 1.9 8v with a Puma big valve head (to begin with) and had some really impressive torque figures, before it all went wrong

[dirtdog 4]

i have tried doing a bit of homework but as you say those IPS errors are to put it nicely..damn annoying

 

 

Personally never having drove a 16v I don't know what the fuss is about. I'm not saying i wouldnt have one because i don't knock it until i tried it. all this CoG stuff is me being a little too fussy. You gotta try get an edge on everyone else though don't ya! the 1.6gti is a tu series?..i'd have to change my mounts over or something?

 

 

well it's going 35mm front.I don't know about rear..ain't got around to checking out how to drop a beam yet. It's not going to be any more than 35mm anyways.basically it's just not worth the effort..gain a little CoG and end up paying the price for it else where, so that's out of the windowone problem I have is that..it's not just the case of..yea..ok.i'll put in an Mi..cause whats the chances it's rotten from the inside out..it's iron and i'll have to have it rebuilt. personally if i was to go 16v it'd probably be a gti6 or xsara vts lump cause I think that they would be more readily available and in better condition. but it's not a simple conversion isit..MC clearance..shorter manifolds..exhaust reangling..etc etc

 

 

weight is an issue..but..if i do have more power to push it with i can forget about little things like that...maybe i'll just drop the kids off at the pool(if ya know what i mean) before i get in for a drive or prehaps sandpaper the sidewalls of my tyres..shave those precious few grams away to become ultra light.lol.i'm only joking.i'm not obsessed by weight!well..my car IS a diesel..does that mean making it go GTI6 won't be as easy as converting gti into gti6?can you jsut buy the wire conversion kit or something?just plug in and away we go like..if only it was all that simple!i know with the likes of novas etc..they strengthen stuff..would this need to be done if i was to stick in a engine which is..mm..over double the power i have now?also..i don't think insurance would like it much?lol.hence me thinking more along lines of 1.6gti lol.

 

 

as for that guy who got banned..using parts off a car with that horrid little blue oval badge...for shame!lol. fords suck..

 

thanks for the information and the help guys, i don't know what'd id do without yai

Edited September 24, 2007 by dirtdog

[GLPoomobile 958]

I didn't mean he used a Ford Puma head It was an XU head that had been worked over by Dave Baker of Puma Racing. So we just refer to him as 'Puma'. He's also banned now as a reult of the mud slinging between him and Sean.35mm drop on the suspension is about as far as you want to go with a 205. You'll have no driveshaft issues at this drop, unless you do go ahead and lower the engine as well.The 1.6GTi is not a TU engine, so you must have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line. It's a an XU engine. You can stick a TU engine in, and the amount of work depends on the existing engine mount setup. I'm not familiar with the Diesel shells so I've no idea how much work is involved. For shear simplicity, just go with a 1.6 or 1.9 and spend a little bit of money getting some more out of it. I don't usually advocate spending money on the 8vs as pound per HP its not worth it compared to a 16v conversion. But since you seem to be more keen to keep it light and not too bothered about ultimate BHP then it seems like a reasonably sensible course. Whatever you do, I'm sure you'll notice a significant improvement over the heavy old diesel lump. Then it wil lbe just a case of when do you want more? :lol:I didn't mean he used a Ford Puma head It was an XU head that had been worked over by Dave Baker of Puma Racing. So we just refer to him as 'Puma'. He's also banned now as a reult of the mud slinging between him and Sean.35mm drop on the suspension is about as far as you want to go with a 205. You'll have no driveshaft issues at this drop, unless you do go ahead and lower the engine as well.The 1.6GTi is not a TU engine, so you must have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line. It's a an XU engine. You can stick a TU engine in, and the amount of work depends on the existing engine mount setup. I'm not familiar with the Diesel shells so I've no idea how much work is involved. For shear simplicity, just go with a 1.6 or 1.9 and spend a little bit of money getting some more out of it. I don't usually advocate spending money on the 8vs as pound per HP its not worth it compared to a 16v conversion. But since you seem to be more keen to keep it light and not too bothered about ultimate BHP then it seems like a reasonably sensible course. Whatever you do, I'm sure you'll notice a significant improvement over the heavy old diesel lump. Then it wil lbe just a case of when do you want more?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Diesels are XU engines so the mounts are the same as those of a petrol XU.

 

All of the later shells have the same engine mount locations, only early shells (pre 1990~1 iirc) had the different offside inner wing mount but that won't concern you for this swap.

 

Graham.

[dirtdog 4]

been thinking about this more recently. i dont want it race tuned or anywhere even near that kinda power. i'd want reasonable MPG. but i also want..that little extra oomph over standard power

 

would a K&N, group n exhaust and prehaps a new manifold make it a little more pokey or is it not really worth doing? i've heard the manifolds are a bit of a waste of money unless it's already got big power. (i'd like to see fire in that pipe!)lol. i know pugs are underpowered from new but..i'd be hoping for 120ish..

 

what about the injection system? should this be retained or removed/alterd?

 

the engine is gonna be rebuilt so its gonna be running healthy(hopefully).should have no problems and breathe nicely. what about Compression Ratios? worth changing? (reliablity needed as will be daily driver!)

 

what gearbox would you recommend? i'm guessing the 1.6 box. any problems to look out for when buying?

 

also to brush things up here..how much am i looking at to get one(1600) wired and dumped in?

 

i know i'd have to change the way the rev counter works? anything else i have over looked? thanks for your time

[welshpug 1,622]

you can tune the Diesel engine to produce more power and significantly more torque than the petrol engine, AND still do more MPG than you could ever get with a 1600 petrol 205

[large 33]

If you want a 1.6 go out and get one it will probably work out cheeper.

[large 33]

Have a look in the for sale section one for £300.

[dirtdog 4]

i wouldnt buy another car for 300 just because it's got a gti badge on it. it has problems, no tax no mot..i'm not trailering nothing anywhere. i dont like red..(had a red 1 before.ergh) and anyway...i dont need the car itself. i only need the engine n box. i'd make money back seling the stdt mor than likely but..it's in too good nick to just get rid off.i wil be keeping it a good while longer

 

 

anyway im tunig the derv engine up a bit, see what it can produce. it'll have to have an intercooler fited bfore i start playing with the fuel pump or it'll overheat like a bitch. after i've played around wit it..if its still not satisfying me..i'll gti it. or if i can source engine locally from a 8v 406 turbo..one of them. that'd be the icing on the cake