Ok Here We Go

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Hi all

 

Im new to the forum and need some expert advice on which route to take with my hillclimb 205!!

 

Ive been running in the road going class this year and been not even 1 second of a Subaru WRX so were goin well. BUT, for me that was only a starter class, next season i will be heading into the Modified Production Class and so spending a fair amount on gettin it ready with the various items needed ie cage seat the list goes on

 

BUT

 

my biggest question is, "what do i do engine wise"

 

The Modified Production class has to keep the original 1900 Block (i not sure on whether it can be bored to one of the 2100cc Short Block that HiFlow do, i will have to find out)

 

I have been speaking to Gary Puma Racing and Nick at Shenpar Motorsport who are great guys and have been loads of help.

 

I have been told of a very sound GTi-6 engine going for sale BUT this will bump me up into Special Salloons where pretty much anything goes and the records are pretty much untouchable as some serious money is spent in this class, so i have ruled that out!!

 

I think my best route will be to go with a Puma Racing Big Valve head and i already have a set of 45 DCOE Webers to be fitted with a matched manifold to ported head, with a proper rally cam, then a lightened flywheel, 1600 box with 4:4 CWP, Gripper LSD, 4:2:1 mani with straight through system

 

Hows does that sound?!

 

Whats everyones thoughts.................PLEASE HELP

 

Many Thanx

 

Simon

[Anulfo 22]

Don't think being in a modified class guarantees you anymore success than in standard class as you are up against people who have also spent shed loads of money!!!!

but if you are gonna modify a 1.9 then id say carbs or throttle bodies,big valve head,sportier cam,oversized forged pistons etc.......the list could go on and on.I'd look through the forum and see what other guys are doing!!!!One definate thing would be changing your final drive!!!For hills i'd go for a 4.8:1 final drive!!!

Building something from scratch you sure are going to spend a pretty penny...good luck!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

thanx for the reply

 

yeh im kinda realisin the huge expense as im pricing up the bare minimun to get into the class and be competitive at about £2500, gotta start somewhere!!

 

ive already read some excellent info on doin some minor DIY porting and polishin of the 8v head so bein taht im very technical minded anyway im goin to give this a go and smooth a few ridges out etc and maybe gain a couple of bhp for free, midway throu next year im going for a Puma Racing Big Valve head (when i can afford) so that'l be somethin to look forward to!!

 

You say Forged oversized pistons................. how do you mean oversized, do you need bigger bores for larger pistons?! sorry im a bit naive with regards to compression etc?!

 

I would also like to skim the head as much as i can to increase the compression but i dont know how much to take off as it seems more complicated than what i thought, can anyone help me on this?! ill be fitting a full rally cam to compliment the 45 webers!! any advice as too how much can be skimmed off?!?

 

Thanx

[boldy205 75]

souns like you know what you up to. As you will prob know once you get rid of the Std intake saeup for Webers you will ba able to have much wilder cams and a big valve head will soon make it a bit quicker. How about fitting the 1.9 MI16? will this put you up a class? Its got 160 BHP out the box, nota a lot differant to a well tuned 1.9 8V?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

souns like you know what you up to. As you will prob know once you get rid of the Std intake saeup for Webers you will ba able to have much wilder cams and a big valve head will soon make it a bit quicker. How about fitting the 1.9 MI16? will this put you up a class? Its got 160 BHP out the box, nota a lot differant to a well tuned 1.9 8V?

 

hi again,

 

i did think to stay in the class that it was only the block that had to stay original but on further reading its actually the head aswel, you can do as much as you want to them ie big valve head, lighten balance crank but they must be the proigianl block and head on the outside, its a shame cause i know there is serious power to be had but that comes with a serious price tag!!

 

cheers

 

simon

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

If your looking at the best in the UK then you can only really get a Richard Longman head, These are proven with the right parts to 230bhp (Give or take a couple) and are pretty good value when you can spend almost as much on rubbish. Bar Mass when they did these engine's did they come to the same figures.

You will need forged pistons & Steel rods really but people have used std rods without too many problems,

You can goto a 86.5mm bore but this isn;t cheap so anything from std to this is your choice,

I would use Throttle bodies (I hate carb's) or at least mapable ignition to gain a free horses on the ignition side,

 

You could use the Mi16 block which allot of people do and have in classes where the orginal block should be used but the only real differance is extra ribbing (Strength) and piston oil spray bar's.

 

Or if you have a big cheque book it Sodemo in France.

[Anulfo 22]

Have to agree with miles the Mi-16 bottom end does make for a very strong foundation for an 8valve head and chances are the scrutineers probably won't even be able to spot the difference unless they are absolute pug anoraks!!!

I've put 0.5mm oversized forged pistons in an 8valve engine before...will bring capacity up to 1,928cc still within 2,000cc class!!!With a big valve head this is well worth doing!!!

Problem is with the carbs they take a lot of rolling road time to set them up properly and you really need to take the car to someone who knows what they are doing and of course over a hard season of motorsport they will probably need re-tuning at some point...all of which can add up!!!

If i were building an 8valve i would be tempted to go for throttle bodies!!More costly initially to set up but a lot less agg in the long run!!!

If you are doing hills then your top speed isn't going to be as high as say track racing so don't overlook gearbox mods.I'd go for 4.8CWP could be some of the best money you spend!!!

Good luck.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

thanx for the info

 

unfortunatley my budget isnt massive having bought a £307k house this year but im tryin to do the best with my money which im im here really as u guys can advise on this.

 

for the time being i will work with the normal 8v block and build from there, maybe one day sourse a mi16 block and biuld it up over time while im running the 8v block but at least i know now which is a great help, thanx

 

i managed to pick up a set of 45 webers already fitted to a pug that i bought for spares so unfortunately i will be stickin with them as i really cant afford throttle bodies (ONE DAY)

 

i will definitely look into the Longmans head work as i have never heard fo these before until i came on teh Forum, i thought that Puma Racing seemed to be the best and most detailed work but i will try and compare the 2 for value

 

how does fitting larger pistons work?! is it purely gettin larger pistons that fits inside the original bores tighter?! where do you sourse larger pistons from?!

 

yeh i will defintely be gettin a different CWP for next year however Puma Racing told me that the 4:4 from an MI16 box would be ideal for me but this si teh second time i have been advised to go for a 4:8?! you are right, the max speed is only about 70-80mph so no top is necessary, please adivse?!

 

Many Thanx

 

Simon

[309PUG 2 1 Cars]

Hi,

Good luck with the engine build, I have just done the same with std valve sizes and running TB's, I did all the work myself with the exception of skimming the head. In answer to your question re larger forged pistons, I fitted 0.5mm larger diameter pistons but you also need matching sized liners to suite, you can purchase these from Longmans and by the way Longmans are the Daddy when it comes to head work, I have seen what they do and it's spot on. If I had my time again I would have bought a big valve Longman head, no question.

Any more info just ask, I have quite a few pics of a Longman head and other pics if needs be.

 

Chris

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Its not just about power, its about how you drive . My Visa has a 168bhp Mi16 ie barely tuned, quaife, £400 suspenion, 1.6 brakes, 2nd hand slicks etc yet ive had 2 class wins, a 2nd and a 3rd in my 4 modprod sprints so far this year. I havent touched my engine in 5 years. My improvements have come mainly from different springs, quaife helped a bit as did the tyres although not that much over my old 48r's. Big thing thats helped this year was moving myself lower and further back in the car so I am no longer squashed up against the dash.

 

GTi6 would be pushing it in modprod as its a different size to the Mi16 or 8v's. I have yet to see a Mi16 block equiped 205/Visa kicked out of modprod as the only external difference is a tiny bit of ribbing and the Blue Books wording is "Block must be externally identifiable as one originally available in that vehicle", so if you ignore that almost irelevant bit of ribbing its the same, internals you can do what you want with anyway in modprod. 99% of Escorts use 205 sierra blocks that were never sold or homologated in them which can be spotted by different locating of the oil pressure sensor etc but they are normally allowed to run.

 

Dont start me on Escorts with 4 link rear ends and modified floor plans to accomodate this....

 

1.6 box with 1st and the 4.4cwp from the 16v box would be a nice setup for you, 4th would do ~100 depending on tyre size, 4.8cwp would be ultimate although getting off the line may be tricky as it would only be geared to very low 30's

[VisaGTi16v 1]

re: head and block comment, its only road going where you must keep the same head, in modified production you can fit whatever head you want, only rule is the one about block externally looking the same

[pdd144c 0]

Speak to Longmans or SMD for head work. As Darren said it's not just about power. Suspension, diffs, roll cage etc will also see great improvements.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Plus lose as much weight as you can, adding lightness is like free horsepower

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

thanx for the info, great help.

 

i do undertsand that its the cars set up which gets the times just as much as the engine which is why ive got for a 205 inthe first place, i love the cars handling!!

 

on my list of things for next year are

 

Rollcage

AVO Double Adjustable rear Shocks

Gripper LSD (as advised over a Quaife by Gary at Puma Racing)

4:4 or 4:8 CWP fitted into a 205 1600 box

Tyres - either AVON Crossply Slick OR (also advised by Gary) the New Toyo Proxes R888 SG, they are more of an intermediate tyra than full slick but have great handling and are about £100 cheaper per corner

Already got the powerflex wishbone bushes

Already got Group N top suspension bush

Going to get a Solid rear Beam kit

 

Weight wise - i am going to strip every shred i can, including goin the full way and takin the dash out and making a nice light alloy replacement!!

 

As i am 6'3" anyway i will be setting the seat quite far back and in turn this will help keep the weight better proportioned in the car

 

I think maybe for the 2009 season i will go to Longmans for a BV head and also get bigger pistons etc and lighten/blance crank, at least by then i would have nailed the set up of the car and just be going for a bit more power

 

ANYWAY - u say its not all the car, its mainly the driver, how about driving a standard 1900 with the Gentry engine in ,which only has 122bhp and on road tyres only being 1.2 seconds of a Full Prodrive Subaru Impreza WRX who has a few seasons under his belt in that car, now thats drivin for you ))

 

i will post my shopping list for next year and see if anyone can help out at all as i know alot of you have been down this route before

[SimonJ 2]

1.9 box better because of longer first.

Lighter wheels, maybe 14" which means cheaper tyres also.

And don't forget some negative camber.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Those 888's even in GG compound are stupidly soft, a few people use them around here. Slicks will always be harder to warm up unless you get the omg expensive £220+ a corner ultra soft Avons. Of course then you need a 2nd set of wheels, cant drive to the event with them etc so I would probably go for a set of SG's for now

Edited September 20, 2007 by VisaGTi16v

[jackherer 543]

how about driving a standard 1900 with the Gentry engine in ,which only has 122bhp and on road tyres only being 1.2 seconds of a Full Prodrive Subaru Impreza WRX who has a few seasons under his belt in that car, now thats drivin for you ))

 

The Gentry only had 105bhp!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The 1.9 box with at least a 4.8 or if you can a 5.1 which can be found from time to time, The 4.4 for a hillclimb is really to low, but depending on the courners you might find it OK as you don;t want to be a max rev's in the wrong place, try it and see really

Ditch the powerflex bushes as they are not even as good as the std Pug ones which many people have found, They don;t last that long either.

Neg camber is a must. this depends on your tyre choice thou.

Gripper Diff's are great, But I;ve switched to Tran 'X' now as the back up is great compared to Gripper which was a nightmare (Not sure if anythings changed yet)

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

1.9 box better because of longer first.

Lighter wheels, maybe 14" which means cheaper tyres also.

And don't forget some negative camber.

I had thought that 1st was too short with the 1600 box and especially second as im having to change to 3rd about 2/3's up the last straight which is loosing me time whereas the 1900 box pulled right up to the corner in 2nd, think ill go with a 1900 box, at least i have both to play with during the season

 

 

Those 888's even in GG compound are stupidly soft, a few people use them around here. Slicks will always be harder to warm up unless you get the omg expensive £220+ a corner ultra soft Avons. Of course then you need a 2nd set of wheels, cant drive to the event with them etc so I would probably go for a set of SG's for now

 

i have the current road Toyo Proxes which are great handling and will keep these on teh rims for gettin to an from the hillclimbs and also in the wet conditions and then i gonna get a set of the Toy Proxes R888 SG to fit onto a set of OZ alloys i have also which are ultra light compared to the standard 205 rim, its a noticeable weight difference so that should give me an advantage

 

 

The Gentry only had 105bhp!

thats even worse, pretty chuffed how i got it to go so well then

 

 

The 1.9 box with at least a 4.8 or if you can a 5.1 which can be found from time to time, The 4.4 for a hillclimb is really to low, but depending on the courners you might find it OK as you don;t want to be a max rev's in the wrong place, try it and see really

Ditch the powerflex bushes as they are not even as good as the std Pug ones which many people have found, They don;t last that long either.

Neg camber is a must. this depends on your tyre choice thou.

Gripper Diff's are great, But I;ve switched to Tran 'X' now as the back up is great compared to Gripper which was a nightmare (Not sure if anythings changed yet)

does anyone know where i can get a 4:8 CWP from?!

the corners are quite long and fairly tight, ie 35-40mph tryin to conter act understeer

thats surprising to hear about the powerflex bushes, ill keep an eye on them for sure

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Just keep a look out in Motorsport new's, Ebay etc they do crop up from time to time, Some of the PSA van's use them but finding them is another matter

[pdd144c 0]

Not sure how you can say that about the bushes Miles, order the hardest compound they supply for racing use, they are loads better then the standard Peugeot rubbish and seem to last fine. You don't want really want to be using standard bushes on a car that's competing! Best bet is to use rose jointed wishbones if funds allow, and Powerflex or something similar on the ARB.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

what size are the standard pistons by the way!?

 

what companies other than hi flow heads supply larger pistons and liners?!

 

for 85mm forged pistons and liner kit inc 85mm competition head gasket taking the car to 2000cc HiFlow Heads charge £915, does that sound reasonable?!

 

would be very tempted to go for that following next year

 

says nothing about conrods thou, can standard be used??

 

would need to lighten and balance crank aswel u assume?!

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Better off buying some of the softest avon slicks than spending a grand to get another 20bhp

[Anulfo 22]

Here,here Mr Visa man i agree!!!There are other ways to make a car go faster and handle better than those everso expensive horses!!!!!

[Anulfo 22]

And as rightly you said Mr Visa man it ultimately comes down to your ability as a driver.......or lack of it!!!

I wouldn't get too hung up on mods Wardy as ive seen guys competing and doing well in pretty much bog standard pug 205's!!!!Just make sure your car is in good condition,everything works as it should and get out there and enjoy your car!!!When you start modding,do it in stages and log everthing down so you know what works and what doesn't.Some mods might be an expensive waste of time and money while some will help you shave valuable seconds off your times!!!!