Engine Quit And Won't Restart

[Mark Hendry 0]

OK,

So I was driving my 1.6 GTi home a week ago. I stopped for petrol then got back on the road and a couple of minutes later the engine died and wouldn't start again.

 

The starter motor runs, the engine just won't fire up.

 

I've tested

- it has spark

- it has fuel entering fuel rail

- it has fuel entering cylinders (fuel was on spark plugs when they were removed)

Also

- I've replaced the ecu with a spare (1.9 version) and replaced the two green relays on the passenger (left-hand) side of the engine bay.

- I can feel the tachymetric relay clicking when the key is turned so I assume it's working.

- I've removed the fuel pump fuse to check that there is not too much fuel being delivered.

 

I note that the pedal feels very light - although I haven't owned the car for too long so this could be a red herring. Because of this I've also checked the throttle cable is actually moving the throttle, which it is.

 

Does anyone have any ideas as I spent all of last weekend fault finding with no luck and I am completely out of things to test. Please note that I recognise that just because I think I've tested somehting that doesn't mean I was right so if you think I should recheck anything let me know.

 

Thanks for your help

[Mark Hendry 0]

Oh I also noticed, before the car died, that it was reving a little high (around 1200-1300) and was going through more fuel than I would expect. It only gets 210 miles or so per tank.

[gti-si 0]

Sounds very strange? Sure it's not over fuelling and flooding? After you've tried to start it up, disconnect the injectors and see if it kciks in for a few seconds?

[Mark Hendry 0]

Yeah I wondered that (after reading through other posts) so about 15 mins ago I went out and removed the fuel pump fuse then tried to start it. I expected that it would run for a few seconds while the fuel emptied out of the fuel rail then die.

 

No luck, it didn't run at all.

[gti-si 0]

Hmm, if theres fuel, a spark and you've not got a whole in the side of the engine...I can only see it being electrical. Im not too sure what effect the 1.9 ECU has on a 1.6, i'm sure it's not great but I think it would atleast start it

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

i know your getting a spark, but is it strong enough? if its only faint it will get 'blown out' in the cylinder.

have you tried another ignition amp?

 

edit: if its got the 1.9 ecu on it it wil probably be overfuelling but it should run, abeit very rough.

Edited June 11, 2007 by pugger

[pugrallye 0]

Are you checking spark with plugs in the bore? What colour spark are you getting? If its not big fat and blue you need to start checking integrity of your ignition system.

 

Are you sure the fuel you put in was decent quality? Its not uncommon for the occasional forcourt tank to suffer water contamination of the fuel (might be good idea to drain tank and put some known good stuff in!)

 

Tachymetric relays 'clicking' is not assurance that the relay is actually operating (it may have burnt secondary contacts), you should be hearing fuel pump whirring, or quick test is to crack line feed off to the fuel filter and switch ignition on to see if your pumping

Edited June 11, 2007 by pugrallye

[Mark Hendry 0]

"Im not too sure what effect the 1.9 ECU has on a 1.6, i'm sure it's not great but I think it would atleast start it"

 

I agree I tried the 1.9 ecu to see if the 1.6 ecu was tast. No luck with te 1.9 so I'm back to the 1.6

 

"have you tried another ignition amp?"

 

I haven't tried another ignition amp -I will try anything at this point

 

"Are you checking spark with plugs in the bore? What colour spark are you getting? If its not big fat and blue you need to start checking integrity of your ignition system."

 

I checked the spark by removing the plug from the bore and sparking to the head. I could see a spark but I wouldn't be confident that it was huge only that there was a spark there

 

"Are you sure the fuel you put in was decent quality? Its not uncommon for the occasional forcourt tank to suffer water contamination of the fuel (might be good idea to drain tank and put some known good stuff in!)"

 

I guess that's possible although I did try to run the car by spraying brake cleaner through the air inlet with no luck. I would've though that the brake cleaner would at least get it to run albeit a little rough

 

"Tachymetric relays 'clicking' is not assurance that the relay is actually operating (it may have burnt secondary contacts), you should be hearing fuel pump whirring, or quick test is to crack line feed off to the fuel filter and switch ignition on to see if your pumping"

 

Fair point but I have removed the fuel line and confirmed fuel is being pumped.

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

start by trying to ascertain that you have a big enough spark first. as pugrallye said, it should be big and blue. i noticed in your sig that you have a 309 for parts, try the ignition amp from that.

 

if that doesnt work, try another coil.

[jim21070 2]

If the ECU temperature sensor is duff or disconnected it can cause this by completely destroying any semblence of accurate fuel metering.

 

The fact you have fuel is not an assurance that it will run. Petrol is funny old stuff and will only burn when mixed in the right proportions with air. Too much or too little and no go.

[Mark Hendry 0]

Ok, I will check:

Ignition amplifier

Coil

ECU temperature sensor

and post result

[Mark Hendry 0]

One question

Would any of the above affect idle speed? Like I said I noticed it was a little high before it died

[205turbo 32 2 Cars]

how fast does it turn over, and have you done a compresion test on it

[Mark Hendry 0]

how fast does it turn over, and have you done a compresion test on it

 

It turns over well the starter seems to be getting good power. Sounds just like normal just doesn't fire up.

 

No I haven't done a compression test (yet). I'll put it on my list of things to try

[205007 12]

my vote is temp sensor

then try another airflow meter

 

did it cut out suddenly or grind to a halt?

[Mark Hendry 0]

my vote is temp sensor

then try another airflow meter

 

did it cut out suddenly or grind to a halt?

 

My mate who was helping on the weekend (really I was helping him while he did everything) pointed out that we did check

- temp sensor (assuming that's the one below/behind the distributor)

- air flow meter

- throttle position sensor

and they met the specs we found in threads on 205gtidrivers

 

It cut out suddenly but the engine was kept running as the car slowed down (because it was still in gear).

[grandos 16]

I'm sure I had something similar to this can't remember if it died and would not start or if it would start then immediately die again, and it turned out to be the vacuum hose to the vacuum advance unit on the distributor, correct me if i'm being thick

[Mark Hendry 0]

I'm sure I had something similar to this can't remember if it died and would not start or if it would start then immediately die again, and it turned out to be the vacuum hose to the vacuum advance unit on the distributor, correct me if i'm being thick

 

Well the vacuum advance is disconnected. Hwerver i thought this would explain the idle and possible gas consumption not the fact that it doesn't run at all. Am I wrong?

 

Oh I should also mention that the vacuum line to the manifold is blocked off too

Edited June 12, 2007 by Mark Hendry

[205007 12]

the vac advance is irrelevant

i think you have checked the obvious but it does sound electrical to me

usually if the coil is faulty you will see the rev counter fall away to zero before the engine speed reaches zero of that make sense? however i doubt if you noticed at the time

 

have you tried to bump start? this may point to ignition amp if it will fire from a bump start

 

err after that id be checking the timing and compression

[Mark Hendry 0]

the vac advance is irrelevant

i think you have checked the obvious but it does sound electrical to me

usually if the coil is faulty you will see the rev counter fall away to zero before the engine speed reaches zero of that make sense? however i doubt if you noticed at the time

 

have you tried to bump start? this may point to ignition amp if it will fire from a bump start

 

err after that id be checking the timing and compression

 

 

Can you elaborate on the logic for testing the compression? I don't understand what I discover from checking this other than the rings or seals are worn. Thanks

[Mark Hendry 0]

Oh I have noticed that the rev counter still moves when I try to start the car if that answers the coil question

[205007 12]

if the car has slipped a tooth and consequntly bent a couple of valves then you will be able to see this in a compression test as the cylinders will show low or zero compression

 

when you say the rev counter moves does it move a lot? this can indicate a poor earth

if the gearbox earth under the battery has corroded away or become loose it would cause the car to cut out, however i think it may also inhibit the starter motor and im assuming tha the starter is turning

[steve@cornwall 100]

Sounds very strange? Sure it's not over fuelling and flooding? After you've tried to start it up, disconnect the injectors and see if it kciks in for a few seconds?

 

before the cloud of doom descends...... If it has massively overfuelled It's not unheard of for the plugs to become glazed. cleaning them may not be enough to get a strong enough spark.May as well slap in a new, or known good set

[Guest CamB]

I'm Mark's assistant in this and have got myself registered on the forum now, so I might add a few pennies worth.

 

We can/will definitely check the timing and compression properly on the weekend, and if he pushes since I'm too lazy, we could try bump starting. Swapping the coil and ignition amplifier is definitely the plan, but the parts car isn't handy to him so that's why Mark hasn't tried it yet.

 

The plugs were a pretty decent colour at the electrodes, although a bit fuelly around the bottom. We can definitely try a new set.

 

Just to reiterate, the car suddenly stopped working - Mark tells me he was driving along and it just stopped going (no horrible noises, so hopefully not cambelt issue), which implies a total loss of either fuel or spark (or maybe spark at the right time).

 

- fuel seems to be getting in - the only issue is whether it is too much/too little.

- spark seems to be happening - the issue may be whether it is strong enough or at the right time.

 

This thread has some good ideas on stuff to check that we didn't think of, so hopefully it can be further narrowed down.

Edited June 13, 2007 by CamB

[Mark Hendry 0]

Success!

 

Turns out a wire attached to the negative terminal of the coil was disconected (fat pea green one). Reconnected and car is now running fine. The spade terminal on the end of the wire was too wide for the spade it was connecting to and I guess I went over a bump and it just came loose enough to fail.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help I really appreciate it.

 

Bad news is some rectum hit the car when I had it parked on the street so now I have to fix the bumper.

Edited June 16, 2007 by Mark Hendry