Fitting Coill Packs

[Pug_Power_Dave 0]

Hi,

I've got a mi16 ally block engine to go in a 205, i was just wondering what i had to change to fit coil packs to it instead of the using the dizzy and and single coil. Would it involve changing the rocker cover? and does the 2.0 mi one fit or the s16, and does anything else have to be changed part from the ecu and some wiring? Some pro's and con's would also be good. Main reason im thinking is to make the spark timing more accurate at high rpm.

 

I couldnt find any other posts on this but i appologise if its been covered before.

 

Cheers

Dave

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm interested too Dave as I need at least wasted spark for my engine build. I hope someone chirps up.

 

I am using Megasquirt but now not using the Ford EDIS system which includes a wasted spark (twin coil) pack. I'm interested along with your question to know whether individual coil packs (i.e. 4off like the S16 I believe) has any advantage over the twin coil, wasted spark set-up.

 

Not a hijack - I hope a relevant edition to give an all encompassing answer for anyone else wanting to learn more and possibly go down this route instead of having a distributor.

 

Rich

[Pug_Power_Dave 0]

Thats cool Rich,

 

yea i hope someone has done this kind of thing before and we can get a list of options going of how other people have done it, how they've found it to work and how it may effect the performance of the engine!

 

Cheers

Dave

[petert 554]

There's several different ways to do it, depending on what trigger method, ECU, ignitor and coil set up is used. Naturally all this is budget dependent. I could elaborate more, but these are the basic options with pros & cons.

 

Option 1 - two double end coils, wasted spark

You only need the original Motronic crank trigger for this method, but your ECU must have two ignition outputs. You'll also need a dual channel ignitor, or two ignitors. Cheap, easy to set up and provides a significant improvement over the dizzy.

 

Option 2 - four individual coils, wasted spark

Motronic trigger, ECU with two outputs, but you if you use GM LS1/LS2 coils they have built in ignitors. So wiring is simplified significantly. Wire two coils in parallel. So #1 and #4 fire simultaneously, as do #2 and #3. If you don't want to use GM coils you'd need four ignitors (or two dual channel ignitors). One ignitor for each coil.

 

Option 3 - four individual coils, direct fire

As above, but add a cylinder reference trigger in addition to Motronic crank trigger. All XU10 twin cams have this. Your ECU must have four ignition outputs. Again use either GM coils, or ignitors and normal coils.

 

Option 4 - four individual coils, direct fire, CDI

As above, but the four ignition outputs trigger a CDI, which fires the spark plugs directly. Extremely high output spark which fires for something like 20 degrees of engine rotation. Examples are M&W, Autronic and MSD. It's like using a blow torch to start the fire.

 

You can also add a CDI to any of the other methods, including distributor.

 

The options above also depend on your ECU's capability. If it doesn't have dwell control then you need to use "intelligent" ignitors. Do a search on Bosch 008 (and it's equivalents). An intelligent ignitor optimises the dwell time for the coil. If using a standard ignitor you need to specify the dwell time in your ECU software. Intelligent ignitors were used on cars with hall effect rotors. eg Volvos.

 

The XU10J4 (S16/Mi16) coils are very unreliable and should be avoided. However it does have two dual channel ignitors which are very useful. The XU10J4RS coil setup is supposed to be more reliable. The easy method for mounting individual coils is to use a strut brace. If you're not capable of welding on mounts use cable ties.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?a...ost&id=1675

and

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?a...ost&id=1799

 

Have a look at this site for various coil options:

www.mwignitions.com

 

Option 2 with GM coils is the easiest, cheapest and neatest. Best bang for your buck. Individual coils are better as the coil isn't supplying wasted energy to a cylinder on it's exhaust stroke.

 

None of the options above will work will the standard 205 tacho. That's a another topic!

Edited May 27, 2007 by petert

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

s*it the bed Pete^^^^^^. .....

 

How many options? How much work? How much more in depth knowledge?

 

I'll have to speak with you/someone else regarding how my chosen MS set up (which I'll specify soon) will in practical terms fit and function with my engine AND make my rev counter work.

 

So now I've chosen option 2 - and yes I gather I can just order some GM LS1/2 coil packs new - as I'm a cheapskate, what cars in a UK scrappy may have these? OR, are they so cheap it's just as well buying new?

 

Very interesting and thanks.

 

Rich

Edited May 27, 2007 by DrSarty

[Sandy 189]

The base model XU10's have a wasted spark coil pack that sits on the plugs, looks casually the same as the GTi6, but isn't.

 

I don't really see the advantage of individual coils over wasted spark, I understand that 4 separate coils can do half the work of a wasted spark "pack", but they don't seem to be any more reliable from what I've seen. You have to use a cam sensor to run them truly individually, which means a more expensive ECU. As long as you're getting a spark at the prescribed time, what more do you need?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

That too is interesting Sandy. So it seems Pete's listing of options, apparently ordered in cost and complexity 1-4 respectively means 1 & 2 are both (of my) cost effective and viable options.

 

You seem to be saying that you won't really get the benefit of individual coil packs without an additional timing sensor/trigger, which is one route I've been trying to avoid (one reason I binned Ford EDIS). Also implications of more expensive ECUs is another route I don't wish to travel either.

 

So whilst I'd still like to know where to source the GM (I assume Vauxhall in the UK) LS1 or 2 individual coils in the UK, both 2nd hand and new, I'd also like to know which coil pack for wasted spark is a good route? This would give a simple, ball park cost comparison. Miles mentioned a Pug 106 type of coil pack will be sufficient which I guess from a scrappy's may be around £10 or less.

 

In short I'd like to know how to source and how much rough cost for options 1 & 2 in Pete's list. IF the cost of option 2 is much higher, and the true benefit cannot be realised without more sensing components, then I'm going back to my original wasted spark plan (option 1).

 

Hope this is still on your topic Dave . HIJACKER ALERT!

 

Rich

Edited May 27, 2007 by DrSarty

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

Im planning on running mine wasted spark, this will be done using MS1 V3 with the extra software and the extra igntiion output. From doind a lot ofresearch its looking the easiest and cheapest wayof getting a good reliable fuel and spark set up. My friend has a set of bosch green injectors for me when he finds them so I can keep the duty cycles down and then I bought one of these for the handsome price of £10 from a scrappy.

I will then use the corsa 16v spark leads as a few others have used these and seem to praise the set up.

Mapping issues are when it will become fun, with MS being the DIY solution not many tuners are ovarely familiar with the mapping software and as such its hard to say who will be best for this set up. I have a local trusted company that are willing to help map mine on their rollers. They have advised as long as Im running wideband (which I will be) and I can get a half decent base map on they will then finalise the map at a cost of £50 an hour. They reckon if the base map is good enough I should be looking sub £200 for mapping. Downside to this is I will have to get a laptop with the mapping software on, dont think they will be happy if I pull up with a PC in the car!!

[Pug_Power_Dave 0]

haha Richie that would be funny to see a whole pc set up in a car!

 

Core loads of good options, didnt realise there were so many. Thanks for your contributions guys.

 

And dont panic Rich its all good relevent stuff your bringing up!

 

Cheers

Dave

[Sam 4]

Cosworth magnecor leads work very well with that coilpack and the mi head, they fit well and have seals. I got a set cheap so was perfect for me.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Admittedly I'm keener on a set of Cosworth Magnecore leads rather than knowing I've got a set of Corsa chavmobile parts on my car .

 

Richie Van - that coil pack is from what? Sam clearly recognizes it but none of you are saying what car it's off.

 

Dr - trying to avoid Corsa bits - S

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

coil pack can be found in 306 xsi's, AX's, 406's and probably a million other cars. Just go to scrappy and pop a few french bonnets. You'll soon find one

[Pug_Power_Dave 0]

Cool Scrappy Raid alert then!!

 

You got anymore details on that rolling road near you Richie if you dont mine sharing

 

Cheers

Dave

[JR20516V 6]

I have two mi16 205's...one with wasted spark...the other with sequential. Both work fine and depend on the quality of your aftermarket ECU to which one you can utilise.

[Sam 4]

That coilpack is on LOADS of cars. Most Pug/Cit's have them, certainly TU anyway.

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

Dave, its motoscope in northallerton. They recently got brand new 4x4 rollers so can tune anything up to 1500 whp.

[petert 554]

I wrote this for someone else, but thought it worth posting again:

 

The reference trigger is normally on the camshaft. Now think about the two missing teeth on the Motronic flywheel. When they come around, the ECU doesn't know whether #1 or #4 cylinder is going to fire next, but they're both going to be at TDC. The reference trigger only fires once per engine revolution. It tells the ECU that the next piston to fire will be #1.

 

If using wasted spark, just having the crank trigger alone is fine, as both #1 and #4 can fire together. A spark is "wasted" or lost, on the cylinder which is on it's exhaust stroke - #1 this time, #4 next time.

 

This is why the LS1 coils are so attractive. You wire them in pairs, but they behave like direct fire. Half of the coil's energy isn't wasted on the paired cylinder normally associated with wasted spark setups. You only need a low voltage, non dwelled output to drive the coils. Any ECU with two ignition outputs can do it. Think about the wiring required, or the lack of it. Just four wires are needed to run up to the four coils - IGN1, IGN2, +12V and GND. How simple is that! Nothing to setup in the software. No need to worry about dwell time. Just straight plug and play.

 

CDI is definitely rolls royce however. It's particularly useful for N/A engines with big cams. The huge, long duration spark ignites everything in sight giving a much cleaner idle and better low-midrange off cam response. Those with a keen ear can identify an engine running CDI ignition. My new 2L race engine idles almost rock steady smooth at 1000 rpm, despite having fat cams.

Edited May 27, 2007 by petert

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for adding more to this Pete. Now I know, and have put feelers out for the wasted spark coil pack as pictured above (off a 306 xsi I believe) and have an idea of cost £10-25, could you direct me towards a GM/Vauxhall car in the UK I could find an LS1 from please?

 

Alternatively - and I have looked on eBay and other suppliers' web sites that mainly have V8 sets - do you know a supplier of new, 4 cylinder LS1 coil packs?

 

The wiring you listed seems totally simple, particularly as the MS 1 set-up I'm interested in (detailed below) does indeed have twin ignition outputs.

 

As recommended by Richie-Van-GTi:

 

everything new to run wasted spark ignition (no ignition amps etc) and use the existing 60-2 ring gear for £250ish delivered from the states. This also includes wideband lambda. From DIYAutotune.

 

Megasquirt 1 can work with a 60-2 crank and coil packs; this is a very common setup. Driving the spark output will require additional VB921 coil drivers. The Megasquirt comes with one VB921; you will need one extra VB921 mod-kit for each additional coil. Check out the MSnS-E manual here:

 

http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Manual_Index.htm

 

In particular, the sections on wheel decoders and multiple coil drivers will cover what you need to know about this ignition setup.

 

You can run alpha-N mode, controlling fuel and spark by throttle position and RPM. However, this is difficult to tune on most engines. Megasquirt comes with a built-in MAP sensor. I would only recommend alpha-N mode if your engine has a very wild cam that does not give you enough vacuum at idle.

 

Our LC-1 package includes a wideband lambda sensor, a control unit, and everything you need to get the sensor working with Megasquirt. Price quote:

 

MS130-K $187 Megasquirt 1 kit with V3.0 PCB

MSStim22-K $45 Stimulator kit

MK-VB921 $5.75 (one needed for four cylinder wasted spark, add more as needed)

WB-LC1-3769 $199 Innovate LC-1 wideband lambda sensor and controller package

Subtotal: $436.75 (with one MK-VB921)

Shipping & Handling: $40.20

Shipping insurance (optional): $6.50

 

Total with one MK-VB921: $483.45

 

This means to me that the GM LS1/2 set-up would perhaps require another 2 x VB921 coil drivers giving you 4 ignition outputs matching to the 4 individual coil packs that the LS1/2 set-up has. However Pete did mention that you wire up the GM set-up as wasted spark pairs so maybe you only need the set-up as listed above to use the GM coil packs.

 

Clarification please any MS experts.

 

DrS

Edited May 27, 2007 by DrSarty

[midnight motorsport 0]

Thanks for adding more to this Pete. Now I know, and have put feelers out for the wasted spark coil pack as pictured above (off a 306 xsi I believe) and have an idea of cost £10-25, could you direct me towards a GM/Vauxhall car in the UK I could find an LS1 from please?

 

Alternatively - and I have looked on eBay and other suppliers' web sites that mainly have V8 sets - do you know a supplier of new, 4 cylinder LS1 coil packs?

 

The wiring you listed seems totally simple, particularly as the MS 1 set-up I'm interested in (detailed below) does indeed have twin ignition outputs.

 

As recommended by Richie-Van-GTi:

This means to me that the GM LS1/2 set-up would perhaps require another 2 x VB921 coil drivers giving you 4 ignition outputs matching to the 4 individual coil packs that the LS1/2 set-up has. However Pete did mention that you wire up the GM set-up as wasted spark pairs so maybe you only need the set-up as listed above to use the GM coil packs.

 

Clarification please any MS experts.

 

DrS

 

hi rich, sorry to jump on this as well, as this is what im trying to get my head around,

but from what i can work out, the vb921 is already a high power coil driver?, so will drive a high power coil? also wasted spark coils, where as the LS1 have thesecoil drivers built in? does this mean that if we used these, will the megasqirt send to higher power to these coils and damage them?

If so, can we just use 4 high power coils and wire them in the same way? or will this be too much for the vb921 chips and blow them?

 

ms experts definately needed

 

if this is all too much, im not going to put my megasquirt together. and buy a ecu that i can just plug all the bits in, take to a man with a rolling road , and say please map this, lol

 

quick thanks to pete for all the info, top man

 

and a sorry to Rich for jumping on this post !!

 

cheers, jay

Edited May 27, 2007 by midnight motorsport

[Pug_Power_Dave 0]

Thanks for all the info guys, most helpful

 

Cheers

Dave

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Yes Dave. A very useful thread you started and I hijacked . I've given my last post some more thought and I'm hoping PeteT or similar will reply as I've convinced myself on my final point.

 

PeteT's option 2, the GM(Vauxhall) LS1 or LS2 coil packs (individual coil packs but running wasted spark) only requires 2 ECU ignition outputs. This is what the detailed MS1 bundle from DIYautotune (with V3 PCB) and one additional VB921 (iirc) has.

 

The LS1/2 wiring PeteT mentioned was IGN1, IGN2, 12v+ & neg-, which seems exactly what the MS bundle provides (ign1 & 2 aka 2 ign outputs). This means you have an individual coil pack on each of the 4 plugs, each with its own built-in ignitor, being triggered in a wasted spark style such that 1 & 4 fire and then 2 & 3 fire, with one of the pair being a 'wasted' spark on a cylinder's exhaust stroke. That's my reasoning anyway. Providing I can locate a cheap source for the GM coil packs then I think this'll work a treat.

 

I just need this confirmed by someone like PeteT/Sandy309 or the legendary Mad Professor who I'm just about to PM nudge towards this thread.

 

Rich

Edited May 27, 2007 by DrSarty

[Mad Professor 7]

I am running Bosch / Sagam coil packs on my 8v engine.

 

I am running 2 VB921 Ign Coil Drivers in my Megasquirt, as standard all megasquirts have one vb921 inculided in the kit's. adding one or more VB921 Ign Coil Drivers is not a problem, it's just a small hardware mod, I have some pictures on said in the 1st few posts on my project page.

 

One note to peps who want to run coilc packs, please take your power feed from the MS fual pump switched side of the relay, as the last thing you want is the coil pack powering up and charing when the engine is running, once again you should be able to make sence of what I mean by looking at my custom fuse board layout on my project page.

 

Back to coilpacks, it does not matter if you are running the MS1 or MS2 CPU, both the MS1 & MS2 cpu's now have the MegaSquirt Extra code firmware, This supports 36-1, 60-2 trigger wheel, and coil packs.

 

If anyone have any problems settings up there Megasquirt settings or wiring I don't have a problem helping.

 

You can PM me on here or e-mail me on: Mark{at}megasquirt-uk-ltd{dot}co{dot}uk , E-mailing me would be quicker as I don't always have time to look on all the fourms I go onto.

 

As you might guess form the above address I am starting up a new web site, and am becoming a uk dealer for megasquirt.

 

I will be selling prebuilt kits, diy kits, sensors, cables, looms, ect.

 

http://www.megasquirt-uk-ltd.co.uk

http://www.megasquirt-uk-ltd.co.uk/store/