How Much Would People Pay For A Mi16 Oil Surge Solution?

[Rob Thomson 6]

How are you going to maintain chain tension if you reduce the size of the oil pump sprocket? Space the pump away from the block? That's not going to be easy (to do cheaply) as you must ensure the oil flow into the block is unimpaired and well-sealed...

 

How much of a market do you reckon you have? How many Mi16 205s/309s are there in this country? How many are driven by people who care about cornering rather than poncing about in carparks with their neons on? How many of those are aware of or care about surge? How many of those would be prepared to pay for this proposed solution? I don't think you'll ever sell more than 20, and that's never going to be worth the agro.

 

Something that's rarely mentioned in these posts is suspension set-up. A car that rolls will exacerbate the surge problem much more than one that's stiff, well set-up and doesn't roll. Try to visualise what happens to the oil in the sump through a bend, and then visualise the same but with a 10 degree roll angle and you should see what I mean... Perhaps that explains the differences experienced between Peter (race set-up) and Martin (road set-up?).

 

When I was building my still-born 309 Mi16 rally car I considered all the options, and was heading down the dry-sump route...

[Anthony 1,002]

How are you going to maintain chain tension if you reduce the size of the oil pump sprocket? Space the pump away from the block? That's not going to be easy (to do cheaply) as you must ensure the oil flow into the block is unimpaired and well-sealed...

As far as I know, using the XU10 pump, chain, and crank sprocket will give you the higher pumping rate and no problems with chain tension.

 

You space out the bottom of the oil pump pickup, rather than the pump from the block - much easier to do, and then you don't get the sealing problems that you mention.

 

Something that's rarely mentioned in these posts is suspension set-up. A car that rolls will exacerbate the surge problem much more than one that's stiff, well set-up and doesn't roll. Try to visualise what happens to the oil in the sump through a bend, and then visualise the same but with a 10 degree roll angle and you should see what I mean... Perhaps that explains the differences experienced between Peter (race set-up) and Martin (road set-up?).

Surely the lean from the suspension is negleable compared to the angle the oil will be in the sump cause of the cornering force, and that's why cars on slicks suffer surge far worse as you've got higher cornering forces pulling the oil out of the sump and up the side of the block?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

What's 'oil surge'?...................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry - couldn't resist

[hman205 1]

I have sat on my Bench at home an Mi16 cylinder head with Mocal fittings tapped into the back ready to be tested its forsale as i have since decided to sell the car and this leaves me with no way of testing this anyone willing to put £100 into testing this can take the head and all fittings this should improve the oil return to the sump and therefor hopefully illiminating the Problems of oil surge

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

First of all what gets my goat about this thread is Jacobs has posted it as though he's breaking new ground when what he's proposing is exactly the same as what Peter did years ago and posted about in depth. Jacobs isn't even giving a nod of acknowledgment in his direction, as I said I did the deep sump thing about a year before Peter but I only did a short post on it so I wouldn't expect many to remember.

Peters kit as far as I know has been used on a hillclimb/spint car and anybody that's done miles and miles of laps round race circuits as I have with my Mi will tell you that the oil surge isn't a problem until the oil gets hot, this isn't likely to happen with Peters car as its only a sprint car and I believe this is why the engine with his deep sump kit fitted has survived.

Also why is this thread in General car chat?

[Rob Thomson 6]

As far as I know, using the XU10 pump, chain, and crank sprocket will give you the higher pumping rate and no problems with chain tension.

Of course, but that requires further dismantling and a new oil pump which isn't what this thread was about. By just reducing the size of the oil-pump sprocket (as proposed here) you'd have a very slack chain unless you move the pump. Which is daft.

 

Surely the lean from the suspension is negleable compared to the angle the oil will be in the sump cause of the cornering force, and that's why cars on slicks suffer surge far worse as you've got higher cornering forces pulling the oil out of the sump and up the side of the block?

I was making a few assumptions about the affect of cornering forces on the angle of the oil. I assumed it has a negligible effect as cornering forces get higher (sort of basic geometry), and that a ten degree difference in the angle of the car would make a larger difference. So I've sketched out various scenarios on CAD....

 

The pictures are supposed to show the crankcase and sump. The dashed line is a notional top-of-sump point.

 

0.9G is about all you'll ever manage on road tyres

1.2G is the optimistic limit of slicks

2G is just to show that effects of increased G aren't as marked as you might expect. You'll never pull 2G in a 205 unless you smack it into something.

 

 

The volume of oil in each pic is the same, so you can see the affect of increasing cornering forces, with no roll angle and a 10 degree roll angle.

 

Fascinating, huh?

 

PS. When I say 'sketch' I mean I didn't take long on the drawings. The angles are bob-on. Also, these are obviously the situations in long corners with no sloshing, and also assume that the crankcase has uniform cross-sections in every axis, and is essentially devoid of things like cylinders, cranks, oil pumps....

Edited February 27, 2007 by Rob Thomson

[Kitsune 0]

I thought this thread was going to help with my HNC project!

 

I have spent quite a few college hours sifting through countless threads trying to get a definitive answer on oil surge and 4 odd months down the line and I'm still no clearer because everyone seems to have their own versions of what causes it and how to help reduce it. There are still unanswered questions, especially on the head design that I would love to know but just haven't had the help or found anything here (or elsewhere for that matter). Due to the amount of info here and the timescale on my project, I decided that I would have to pick just one area and this happened to be the head design. Although now the project is a 'design' project, not a project where I will have something to show. My idea works on the basis of fitting external drains but with some sort of pressure control valve or flow control valve. I doubt this will work any better than any other 'solution' described but it should at least get me through my course!

 

CRF (Martin?), I would love to hear your thoughts on problem via PM as most of the threads I've come across have led to dead ends. I'm still in a position where I can change the direction of my project to maybe something that will help me, not just to gain a pass in my course.

 

Nylon (depending on type) would work as I can't imagine the oil gets hot enough to have a serious effect. If I can mill and turn nylon without causing it to melt, hot oil wont make much difference to it either.

 

The PeterT spacer costs around £27 delivered btw.

[welshpug 1,655]

If dry sump kits work, why don't you put your efforts into making a more cost effective one?

 

I think this is the best reply

 

a suggestion from myself?

 

stop butchering 405's and BX's and move on to the XU10J4RS

 

and slow down on the corners

 

best solution is to alleviate the cause not the problem as they say, so work to the head is the only way to do it properly (apart from dry sumps of course)

 

[petert 585]

I'm currently developing a more cost effective dry sump for XU engines. It will just be the sump however, not the pump or tank.

[petert 585]

The answers to all your questions can be found here:

http://www.taylor-eng.com/sump/wetsump.htm

 

As said by others, all of this has been track tested (by me and others) with oil temps up to 130 deg. Obviously I don't recommend you let it get that high.

[Livelee 0]

How does the windage tray help? and something i've never understood....if the low pressure is being caused by the lack of oil around the pump how will a bigger cog, causing a great rate of pumping, help?

[petert 585]

How does the windage tray help? and something i've never understood....if the low pressure is being caused by the lack of oil around the pump how will a bigger cog, causing a great rate of pumping, help?

 

The tray separates the crank from the oil, stopping the crank from whipping up the the oil. More oil stays in the sump.

 

The bigger flow rate makes a difference at lower RPM, bringing the pump up to the relief pressure faster.

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Just two comments from me on the original proposition:

 

1. I would be a bit reluctant to run my sump any lower than it currently was for a fast road car, having already split and alloy Alfa sump open on a speedbump. Tin can take a beating but alloy can't.

 

2. With regards to investing in the XU9J mi16 engine, my observation is that people are starting to finally cotton on that the XU10J engines are a much better design and the whole extra weight vs handling issue is pretty negligible. GTI6 engines you can chuck in with no rebuilt. I wouldn't do this with an ally Mi16, espec with the vulnerability of the crank which has spawned this topic!

 

Hope this helps

[petert 585]

1. I would be a bit reluctant to run my sump any lower than it currently was for a fast road car,

 

The XU10 sump+spacer plate is just 8mm lower than an XU9 sump+spacer, as it doesn't have fins.

[Livelee 0]

This head is for sale on the forum:

 

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/hman205/DSC00192.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/hman205/DSC00193.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/hman205/DSC00194.jpg

 

Has anybody tried a solution like this or have any opinions on if it would work?

Edited March 14, 2007 by Livelee

[jackherer 543]

This head is for sale on the forum:

 

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/hman205/DSC00192.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/hman205/DSC00193.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/hman205/DSC00194.jpg

 

Has anybody tried a solution like this or have any opinions on if it would work?

 

Mattsav is tapping a head for my mate at the moment, I'll keep you posted.....

[Rik 0]

Prevention is better than cure...

 

I would wait until the above happens and is fully tested on a track car...

 

I'll still be going down Peter T's route though!

 

Anyone got an XU10 sump...?

 

Rik